Government Operations Committee on March 23rd, 2017

[Anne Marie Smart]

Just to make sure I understand, do you mean putting it in a lot of the policies?

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

It seems that Treasury Board policies are one of the main types of governance over the public service, so it seems logical that wrongdoing might be defined to include violations of those policies.

[Anne Marie Smart]

We have various codes—values and ethics, harassment, prevention of harassment—so it's sprinkled throughout and defined in various ways in a number of the policies. I can pull them and send them to the committee, if that would help you.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Okay, but I don't think wrongdoing, under the act, is defined as broadly as we're discussing right now. I guess that's my question.

[Anne Marie Smart]

You're correct.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Do you think it should be redefined to cover all Treasury Board policies?

[Carl Trottier]

We have a lot of other mechanisms that oversee the policies and oversee compliance with policies, so in my view, I don't think there is a necessity to broaden it to include all policies. Those are being covered already through other compliance mechanisms.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Do you think the definition of wrongdoing is good the way it is now, or do you feel it is too narrow in some respects?

[Carl Trottier]

We believe the definition is an appropriate definition as it is now, but this is about opening the books and taking a look at it, so we would welcome the committee's views on that.

[Anne Marie Smart]

Yes.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Certainly, many other witnesses have expressed the view that the definition of wrongdoing is too narrow, and that this is one of the reasons why very few whistle-blowers have availed themselves of the formal process.

I also want to ask about Treasury Board's role in implementing, monitoring, and evaluating the whistle-blower protection processes in individual departments and agencies. Could you tell us what sort of reporting requirements are in place? I know that Mr. McCauley touched on this survey, but I think we're maybe looking for something more robust than that.

[Anne Marie Smart]

There is a requirement for annual reports. The departments, the organizations, must submit an annual report to me. I roll them up, and I must submit them within six months after the end of the fiscal year. Every fall there is a requirement for the minister to table that report in Parliament.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Based on that reporting, could you give us a sense of which departments and agencies are the best, or the worst, in terms of whistle-blower protection?

[Anne Marie Smart]

I certainly have aggregate numbers in terms of how many complaints are made, and disclosures and investigations—

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

That's not exactly what I'm asking for. I think the committee has seen those numbers. I guess I'm asking for more of an evaluation of how well the system is or isn't working in different departments. Are there certain departments that you would hold up as the gold standard of whistle-blower protection? Are there certain departments where it's been a particular problem, where there are particular weaknesses in the system?

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Mr. Weir, perhaps I can help. Are you looking for a subjective opinion from Madam Smart?

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

It doesn't have to be subjective. I'm assuming the Treasury Board—

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

I'm not sure if there's any empirical evidence outside of the numbers she's already provided, but if you're asking for an opinion, I think that's a legitimate question. I just want to make sure Madam Smart understands.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Indeed.

I guess my sense is that Treasury Board is making an evaluation of how well the system is working beyond just reporting the number of complaints. I'm asking if you can share that type of evaluation with the committee, if that's the type of analysis Treasury Board is doing.

[Anne Marie Smart]

Well, I'll tell you what I do. What I insist on is that all organizations are reporting to me, and when or if a report of wrongdoing against an organization is found, I make sure that report is made public and put on the government website. I take it quite seriously.

I can't rate them, but there's no department that comes to mind, in my time in the job, that hasn't complied with the requirements.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Does Treasury Board audit the whistle-blower protection systems of the armed forces, CSIS, and the RCMP?

[Anne Marie Smart]

As you know, they fall outside the act, but they must have a comparable system in place. We expect they are reporting it and telling us what they are doing as well in follow-up.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

They do, then, report to Treasury Board in the same way as other departments, and you monitor and work with them?

[Anne Marie Smart]

Yes, they do absolutely.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

I certainly appreciate that they are outside the PSIC system, and that's why I'm asking about them.