Evidence of meeting #79 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was wrongdoing.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
I'm just wondering. Quite often you see wonderful performance appraisals for staff and all of a sudden there's an issue and it goes off a cliff. Was that your case, where everything was perfectly fine or relatively fine until you brought it up?
As an Individual
Until I brought it up. Then they decided to send me to another office because I said I wasn't comfortable working in this environment anymore.
So they sent me to another office, and it was even worse.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Was that a demotion to move to another office or a lateral?
NDP
Erin Weir NDP Regina—Lewvan, SK
Thank you, Ms. Therrien, for appearing before our committee and also for your service as a whistle-blower.
One of my priorities since being elected has been to push for greater access and duration of EI benefits for laid-off workers in Regina. So I really value the work you did in exposing the federal government's attempts to deprive people of those benefits.
I appreciate the fact you've sat in on our meeting this morning, and of course I asked the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner about the relatively critical judgment of the Federal Court of Appeal in your case.
You heard his answer to that question, and I wonder if you or Mr. Yazbeck have anything to add to it.
As an Individual
As I see it, this man seems to avoid helping. He was saying at some point that he was neutral. I thought his role was to protect whistle-blowers, not to be neutral. I don't feel he's doing that; indeed it's the opposite.
He's trying to leave me in limbo now.
NDP
Erin Weir NDP Regina—Lewvan, SK
In terms of that limbo, my understanding is that the Labour Relations Board has not yet ruled on whether it has jurisdiction to deal—
NDP
Erin Weir NDP Regina—Lewvan, SK
—with your case, and the Integrity Commissioner is saying that because the Labour Relations Board is considering it, he can't touch it. I asked the Integrity Commissioner about that as well, and I wonder if you or Mr. Yazbeck have a different interpretation of how the system should be working. Is Mr. Friday correct that he can't touch it as long as the Labour Relations Board is considering it, or is there more that the commissioner could be doing under the existing law?
Partner, Raven, Cameron, Ballantyne & Yazbeck LLP
I would say that he's incorrect in saying he can't touch it. He certainly has the discretion to decide not to touch it. In the Court of Appeal's judgment, in the reasons, it said that one of the things a commissioner might want to do is consider waiting until the adjudication process ends so that there is actually a decision at the end, and then make a decision whether it deals with reprisal or not.
But in this particular case, I can tell you that the evidence and the argument before the adjudicator did not rely on an allegation of reprisal at all. There's no dispute about that. So to me, the commissioner could have taken this up, because his original decision was that the reprisal was being dealt with in the adjudication so he didn't have to deal with it now. But that's simply not the case. The reprisal is not being dealt with in the adjudication process. So the commissioner could decide now to investigate Ms. Therrien's complaint.
NDP
Erin Weir NDP Regina—Lewvan, SK
So you think it's the discretion of the commissioner and not the act itself that's preventing him from taking up this case currently.
NDP
Erin Weir NDP Regina—Lewvan, SK
To further pursue this theme of the different avenues that one might take in this type of case, you've got the commissioner, you've got the labour relations tribunal, and you have various internal processes in different departments and agencies. Ms. Therrien, do you feel you got any kind of useful information or guidance from the commissioner about what path to follow?
NDP
Erin Weir NDP Regina—Lewvan, SK
Were there other ways of getting that information? Were there other bodies that you could go to?
NDP
Erin Weir NDP Regina—Lewvan, SK
Do you or Mr. Yazbeck feel that's one of the reforms we should be looking at: to establish some kind of entity that can give people guidance about what route to take in these kinds of cases?
Partner, Raven, Cameron, Ballantyne & Yazbeck LLP
I think so, yes. If you look at Ms. Therrien's circumstance particularly, she's wrapped up in this jurisdictional dispute, which frankly involves some fairly complicated legal arguments. If you were there on your own, you would just be overwhelmed and just obliterated by that. That's the kind of system we have, and this is a good illustration. You would have thought that by now, four years later, the reprisal allegation would have been addressed, good or bad, right or wrong. But no, we're still waiting.
NDP
Erin Weir NDP Regina—Lewvan, SK
Yes, this seems to be a recurring theme among whistle-blowers who've testified. On the other hand, the commissioner, I think, gave us some sense that his office might try to provide people with some information, but it sounds as if, at least in your case and I think some of the other cases we've heard about, that wasn't very adequate or very helpful.
I want to ask you more broadly, as a whistle-blower or as a lawyer representing whistle-blowers, if you have some specific reforms that you'd like to propose to the committee beyond the ones we've already touched on here.
As an Individual
I think that the idea that you talked about this morning about being whistle-blower-centred is a really good idea to really make sure that whistle-blowers are protected and that it's not such a complicated process. I have a good lawyer and it's fantastic, but why should it be like that? Part of it is because you're persecuted as soon as you make an allegation of wrongdoing, so you need a legal representative to defend you, but it shouldn't be so adversarial. They should have been investigating all the money they spent on trying to find who leaked the document to the press, and this and that. They could have investigated if there was quota and if it's true that the claimants didn't receive the EI money that they were supposed to receive. They should maybe investigate if what I was alleging was true or not. That could have been a better place to put taxpayer money, I think.
NDP
Erin Weir NDP Regina—Lewvan, SK
Mr. Yazbeck, you have testified before, but I did want to give you another opportunity, if there were some particular reforms or proposals you want to put on the table for us to consider.
Partner, Raven, Cameron, Ballantyne & Yazbeck LLP
I don't want to repeat what I've said before and waste the committee's time, but something did come up earlier this evening when there were questions about the definition of wrongdoing. I do think that definition is much too narrow. You talk about “gross mismanagement”. Well, it implies that mismanagement in the public service is okay, that it's not wrongdoing. That makes no sense to me.
Conservative
