Government Operations Committee on Nov. 7th, 2023

[Cameron MacDonald]

Mr. Chair, I think what's important to understand is that I am not the contract authority. The task authorization with Dalian and Coradix went through CBSA's contracting authority and PSPC. PSPC validated it. It was reported that they validated it and found it was proper and within the contract. That's important to know.

The other thing that's important to know is that the band 2 you're talking about is a pre-qualified invitation. It is not a standing offer. Anything the government wants to do would have to go out as an RFP, and Botler would have to compete for it. It's not a standing offer for the government to just go and give a contract to somebody.

As for the rest, you'd have to talk to PSPC. I'm not a contracting expert. I just follow the paperwork people tell me to. I did it, and I think it's been validated as—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Okay. However, you're responsible for understanding the follow-up procurement procedures.

[Cameron MacDonald]

Yes.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

PSPC is not a babysitter.

Mr. Utano, you have a subcontractor who no longer feels comfortable associating with your contractors, who's writing to you about non-payment and contract-related issues, and who's asking you for a clean agreement. They're telling you they have no legal or signed agreements with any of the parties, and that they gave no consent for any of the terms.

Are you saying this does not count as a report of misconduct—that none of what it contains could be misconduct?

[Antonio Utano]

With respect to the private relationships and partnerships companies enter into among themselves, that is outside of our purview and scope.

In fact, if I look back at the article of October 6, someone named Anita Chan from PSPC gave the exact same response to Ms. Dutt. We just simply can't do things as we think or feel. We have to follow policies and procedures.

Moreover, we signed privacy clauses with the primary contractor. We are not allowed to discuss proprietary information between CBSA and the primary contractor, Dalian and Coradix.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, Mr. Utano.

We'll go to Ms. Kusie for five minutes.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Why do you believe Botler was known as the president's project?

Either of you can answer.

[Antonio Utano]

At the very beginning of it, I had limited to no real exposure to the president on this project, to be quite honest with you, so I don't have an answer for you.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Go ahead, Mr. MacDonald.

[Cameron MacDonald]

The president was seized, at the time, with the cases of sexual harassment at CBSA. He was trying to do everything he could to find tools or services to reduce it.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Okay. Thank you.

Mr. MacDonald, you indicated to the committee that you would be willing to give any documentation necessary to us so we can get to the bottom of this.

I'm asking you both, please, whether you would be willing to submit your calendars and meeting invitations from the period of January 2019 to June 2023.

[Cameron MacDonald]

Mr. Chair, I have no problem with CBSA submitting those. I can submit from May 3 until now, since I've been at Health Canada, but I don't have access to my calendar from CBSA.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Okay. Thank you.

We'll work with CBSA to obtain those.

I want to go back to something my Liberal colleague said. This was about the $54-million price tag.

Do you agree with that $54-million price tag? Do you think this application was worth $54 million?

[Cameron MacDonald]

If you're directing the question to me, I left when ArriveCAN was at $6.3 million. I believe, out of the $54 million, there were things outside of IT—$7 million went to Service Canada to do things. When I look at the cost over three years, I think.... If you look at major IT systems, and I would consider this a major IT system.... I think it's less expensive than people are making it out to be.

I want to underline this: We know everything that happened now, so it's very easy to rebuild something that's been built. It's called a model. We didn't have a model to follow when we built ArriveCAN. They were coming up with things in real time. This started off as a replacement for a piece of paper that cost about $3 each. When we think about the 40 million transactions on ArriveCAN.... I like to think of it as an overall cost saving for the Government of Canada.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Do you think the app could have been designed for less money than $54 million?

[Cameron MacDonald]

I think if we had taken an approach of knowing all of the business requirements when we started, we probably could have saved some money, but we didn't know what the requirements were. We didn't know what the waves of the variants were going to be, and we didn't know how to necessarily....

I'll leave the politics aside. The business requirements came from PHAC. All we were trying to do was streamline the border and get information so that the streamlining of those people crossing the border could be quicker. That was what our goal was.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

What I'm hearing you say is that it could have been designed for less money than the $54 million it was designed for.

Did you want to add something briefly, Mr. Utano?

[Antonio Utano]

I would agree with that comment in a normal circumstance, but not in a pandemic, I think.

Number two, we were on that trajectory of developing our employees to become autonomous in this capability and these skill sets, but it takes time. Unfortunately, the pandemic hit as we were trying to establish that.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

[Inaudible—Editor]

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Yes, exactly.

My colleague.... On the $9 million to GC Strategies, that money certainly could have been saved there.

My last question is this. The principals of Botler have indicated that senior government officials could potentially be receiving kickbacks, both direct and indirect, both for ArriveCAN and potentially for other contracts as well.

Do you have any direct knowledge about senior government officials, either bureaucratic or elected, receiving any form of kickback?

[Cameron MacDonald]

I have absolutely no knowledge of any senior bureaucrat receiving kickbacks. I can honestly tell you that I have never received one, and I competed for my job in a way that was opposite to the inference that was made at this committee.

[Antonio Utano]

That's my testimony as well. I am not aware of anybody who is receiving those sorts of kickbacks.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you.

With the last of my time, Chair, I will briefly ask where we are with the PSPC witnesses on Thursday, please.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Very quickly, we have three for Thursday. We are getting a bit of a runaround to have them appear, unfortunately. They've verbally said they'll be here but are refusing to put it in writing. I suspect that's probably where we're going.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Summon them.