Evidence of meeting #24 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sandbox.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Harb Gill Conservative Windsor West, ON
The second question I have is, do you have any control over rules or regulations written by any department that your employees or your fellow workers are supposed to be enforcing? Do you write policy, in other words, as PSAC?
National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
In terms of PSAC, our members do not write the policy. We enforce it.
Conservative
Harb Gill Conservative Windsor West, ON
Exactly. Thank you.
I come to this from 30 years of being a public servant as well. I didn't write policy; I simply enforced it.
From your perspective, what practical changes could the government make right now with regard to rules or regulations to manage costs without breaking morale and losing the expertise or hurting Canadians?
National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
Thank you for that question.
It's quite easy. It's simple. First of all, embrace remote work. I say this because we have expensive leaseholds and buildings that needed to be retired long ago. There are major problems there. We know that's the next phase of work, if you were to embrace it. People are more productive and are able to do that.
I would also say that right now the government has a lot of contracts. They contract out a lot, and they do subcontracting. We could do it cheaper in-house without a doubt.
Do I believe that restructuring is needed to look at the programs? Yes, but you need to look at it on the basis of how we deliver the services and what's required instead of looking at just cutting from the top.
Conservative
Harb Gill Conservative Windsor West, ON
When those permanent positions are cut and consultants are brought in, what does that do to the morale for folks at PSAC?
National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
I can tell you that our members' mental health is suffering. There's a lot of chaos out there. We're talking about those 68,000 letters that were sent out. By the way, I got one, so I can tell you what it says. It does not explain what it is: You have this entity sitting there that's an option, but you don't know what it is. Then, you receive a letter. There may be 12 jobs that are affected, but there are 200 people receiving letters. Does that make sense?
Also, in order to get early retirement, it has to be through the deputy head. They have to okay it. This is something they want, so why are they putting something in front of them, creating fear and impacting people's mental health? It just doesn't make sense. It's creating a toxic work environment.
Conservative
Harb Gill Conservative Windsor West, ON
It seems they want to send you packing, send you home, but you're not leaving any time soon, it seems.
When a public servant leaves and the job isn't filled, what happens to the work the next day? From what your members are saying, is the workload actually reduced when the position disappears, or is the same amount of work being done by fewer people?
National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
The same amount of work is being done by fewer people, and it develops a backlog. What ends up happening is there has to be a solution. The solution is that they're going to focus on getting rid of a part of the job position, blitzing it and putting resources to it. They hire term employment, casuals, to come in, but it takes time to train them, and so the backlog continues to grow. Then they look at other options, such as contracting out or privatization, which is more costly.
Conservative
Harb Gill Conservative Windsor West, ON
How is that impacting the end recipient, the Canadian on the phone or attending your office? What happens to him or her?
National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
They wait. They wait, and they suffer. I will tell you, we've seen the lineups down the road for passports. We've seen employment insurance benefits not being provided. We saw it when two Veterans Affairs offices were closed. We've seen how this works. I'm just disappointed because we could do better.
Conservative
Harb Gill Conservative Windsor West, ON
I know that AI is being used, or looked at, significantly by the government to look for or find efficiencies to reduce the workload. Are your members being trained, consulted or protected as AI is introduced? Are these tools being rolled out first, with workers expected to absorb the risk and the public blowback if things don't go—
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
We are past our time. Perhaps we'll have one more short intervention after that, and we can get a response then.
We'll go to Ms. Rochefort, and then we're going to do three two-and-a-half minute rounds to finish up.
Liberal
Pauline Rochefort Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON
I went to look at your website to read your charter, and it is very clear that you strive to enhance your members' quality of life. You have been at the forefront of a variety of significant and successful campaigns. Today we just spoke about the expanded early retirement for operational services employees, and congratulations on that. That is significant, yes.
Coming back to the issue of early retirement, ERI, as you call it, you mentioned there had been no consultation, but, at the same time, there was an election. Canadians have mandated the government to return the federal public service population to a more sustainable level. That formed part of the campaign issues that were discussed. Do you view the workforce adjustment provisions that are proposed as being in keeping with your charter, in which you speak about quality of life?
National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
There are two parts to this. First of all, there's a mechanism in our collective agreements that our members fought for and negotiated, and it's very clear. It's transparent and fair, so there is that. I can guarantee you that no one voted on election day to say they want early retirement incentives and to use a surplus out of our pensions to fund it. In terms of looking at this from a larger perspective, I understand that decisions have to be made, but they don't have to be made by sacrificing the worker or the service.
The question is, how do we move this forward in a good way? How do we consult and make sure there's minimal impact on the public? At the end of the day, it will be those who reside in Canada and who depend on those services who will be impacted.
Liberal
Pauline Rochefort Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON
Those are good points. At the same time, there are limited options, as you pointed out.
I was just reminded of an article I recently read in a Canadian human resources periodical, which spoke about workforce adjustment programs and early retirement programs. They're considered a more humane approach. Years ago, I was involved in administering an early retirement program in my organization. There was a public discourse. At the same time, I found that when I spoke one-on-one with employees who were opting for the voluntary early retirement initiative, they were, in fact, supportive. I was surprised.
Do you feel there's a double discourse out there among your members, from a public union perspective? Maybe the members feel differently.
National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
Right now, I think our members are confused. They don't know what their rights are. That's the real issue we have here. We won't know what's involved in the early retirement incentive until actual language is developed. My concern is the fact that we have that chaos out there.
If people would like to retire, that's a personal choice. The real focus has to be on what work is being left behind and what service is not being delivered.
Liberal
Pauline Rochefort Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON
At some point, you will have a role to play in communicating with your members. Are you organizing yourselves to be in a position to support and equip your members with the necessary information?
National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
We are without a doubt. I can tell you that we've developed an animated video—
Liberal
National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
—that explains workforce adjustment and the rights of our members. We've had telephone town halls. We have trained every single one of our activists to have those conversations. We have a whole portion of our website on this. We have national and regional town halls.
We have done everything in our power to make sure our members know their rights prior to making a decision.
Liberal
Pauline Rochefort Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON
They're being informed about their rights. You're doing a good job of that.
Liberal
Pauline Rochefort Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON
Many members eligible for early retirement may hold senior or specialized positions.
I'm interested in what risks you see to service delivery or institutional knowledge. What measures would you expect the federal government to put in place to ensure that those risks are managed responsibly?
Conservative