Evidence of meeting #24 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sandbox.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Power  Executive Director, Red Tape Reduction Office, Treasury Board Secretariat
Young  Senior Director, Red Tape Reduction Office, Treasury Board Secretariat
DeSousa  National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
McCarthy  Director, Negotiations and Research Branch, Public Service Alliance of Canada

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to meeting number 24 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, the mighty OGGO.

We are starting our study of Bill C-15.

We have the Treasury Board to start, and then we have PSAC.

I just want to mention one thing. Our interpreters are here virtually today, so we just ask you to be careful with your speed of speaking and with talking over each other. I know it does happen, but just be aware that it's more of a problem when the interpreters are here virtually.

Also, I'm going take about five minutes at the end to go over our schedule around the Bill C‑15 study that's going to take us to the third week of February.

We'll start.

I understand you have a five-minute opening statement. Please go ahead.

Jenelle Power Executive Director, Red Tape Reduction Office, Treasury Board Secretariat

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee. We appreciate the opportunity to speak with you today about regulatory sandboxes and the proposed amendments in Bill C‑15.

Regulatory sandboxes are a well-established tool used by governments around the world to evaluate emerging technologies and innovative practices in a safe, controlled manner. They permit regulators to temporarily exempt a specific organization from narrowly defined provisions of legislation or regulation so that a new product, service or process can be tested under supervision. These exemptions are time limited, apply only to parts of the rules that impede testing and must protect public health, public safety and the environment.

The purpose of regulatory sandboxes is straightforward. They help regulators gather the evidence needed to determine whether existing regulatory frameworks should be updated to safely and responsibly allow innovative products into the Canadian marketplace. As technologies evolve quickly, sandboxes give regulators a structured way to assess risks, to understand impacts and to determine what permanent regulatory changes may be appropriate.

The authority already exists within the federal system, with several ministers already having exemption authorities for the purpose of regulatory sandboxes. For example, the Minister of Transport may issue exemptions to regulation and legislation under the Canada Transportation Act to support innovation, provided that it is in the public interest and that the health and safety of Canadians are protected. The amendments in Bill C‑15 simply extend a similar limited authority to all ministers, subject to clear guardrails.

I would also like to address some misconceptions in the public domain about these amendments.

Bill C‑15 would not allow ministers to exempt any person or business from any federal law for broad policy purposes. There are strict limitations to the exemption authority, restricting its use to testing a product, service, process or regulatory approach in a controlled setting for a limited amount of time. Exemptions could only be made to the specific provisions that prevent the regulator from running the test. Exempting entire sectors of an industry or fast-tracking entire major projects is not within its scope.

The legislation includes explicit transparency and accountability requirements, which will allow for continued oversight and will prevent executive overreach. Ministers must publish exemption orders and an explanation of the decision-making process while protecting confidential business information as required by law. Furthermore, the President of the Treasury Board must table an annual report in Parliament listing all exemption orders issued in the previous fiscal year, the rationale for each and the ministers responsible. This oversight mechanism ensures that Parliament is informed and able to scrutinize the use of these authorities.

Ministers could not use these provisions to exempt themselves or others from obligations under statutes such as the Conflict of Interest Act. The authority applies only to laws within a minister's portfolio and only for the purpose of testing and innovation under regulatory supervision. As with any ministerial decision, exemption orders remain subject to judicial review.

Sandbox testing is not intended to bypass important protections and lead to regulatory changes that compromise safety or environmental standards. The legislation requires that exemptions be in the public interest, that the benefits outweigh the risks and that implementation plans ensure the protection of health, safety and the environment. The purpose of a sandbox is to generate evidence so that regulators can make better-informed decisions about how to maintain—not reduce—these protections in a rapidly changing context.

Finally, it is worth noting that the measures would not encroach on provincial jurisdiction. The legislation itself restricts exemptions to federal statutes and regulations within the responsibility of the minister issuing the order. Moreover, the complementary policy on regulatory sandboxes directs ministers to support federal-provincial collaboration and to meaningfully consult indigenous peoples as part of sandbox development.

Regulatory sandboxes are a valuable tool to help Canadians remain competitive while ensuring that our regulatory system continues to protect Canadians. They allow regulators to adapt safely, transparently and responsibly to technological change. The amendments in Bill C‑15 introduce consistent guardrails, enhance accountability and strengthen government-wide due diligence in the use of this mechanism.

Thank you. We would be pleased to take your questions.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thank you very much.

We'll start with Mr. Patzer for six minutes.

Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

I just want to remind you that the interpreters are doing an exceptional job, but there's a slight delay. However, if people slow down, as I am doing right now, I think we won't miss a single sentence or word.

So this is an appeal to all of you. We can sometimes be more tired in the afternoon, so I'll remind you if you're speaking too quickly. Otherwise, it will be impossible for the interpreters to do all this in record time.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

That was what I was covering at the beginning, but that's a good reminder. Thanks very much.

Go ahead, Mr. Patzer.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Jeremy Patzer Conservative Swift Current—Grasslands—Kindersley, SK

Thank you to the witnesses for joining us today.

I'm going to pick up on a couple things you just said, Mrs. Power.

Did you say that they are going to report once a year on how often they are used? Could you elaborate on the reporting bit?

3:35 p.m.

Executive Director, Red Tape Reduction Office, Treasury Board Secretariat

Jenelle Power

It's required that once a year the President of the Treasury Board would have to produce a report. It would actually come to this committee.

In the report, there needs to be every new regulatory sandbox authority that was granted in the last year and any ones that are ongoing. If it was granted two years ago but it's still in place, that has to be listed as well. Also, all the ministers who actually made the decisions need to be included in the report.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Jeremy Patzer Conservative Swift Current—Grasslands—Kindersley, SK

Every single department will be reported back to this committee.

3:35 p.m.

Executive Director, Red Tape Reduction Office, Treasury Board Secretariat

Jenelle Power

Absolutely.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Jeremy Patzer Conservative Swift Current—Grasslands—Kindersley, SK

These sandboxes were whose idea?

3:35 p.m.

Executive Director, Red Tape Reduction Office, Treasury Board Secretariat

Jenelle Power

The authorities have been sought for several years at this point. I think that consultations actually took place in 2023 in terms of trying to get the feedback to put them in place. Brennen might have more history that he'd like to share.

Brennen Young Senior Director, Red Tape Reduction Office, Treasury Board Secretariat

Regulatory sandboxes have been in use in the financial technology sector for quite some time. They are starting to be used internationally a little bit more.

Within the Canadian context and the federal context, the Minister of Transport and the Minister of Health got sandbox authority in 2019, so it dates back several years.

We looked to expand the authorities to all ministers starting in a consultation in 2023. We have a number of stakeholders that support that this was a good idea. We continued to proceed with that. I think the use of this is something that we could probably date back 10 years.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Jeremy Patzer Conservative Swift Current—Grasslands—Kindersley, SK

Are there reporting requirements in place already for those ministries you just listed or is this a new addition?

3:35 p.m.

Senior Director, Red Tape Reduction Office, Treasury Board Secretariat

Brennen Young

One of the things we're looking to do with this horizontal approach is create a playing field that is the same for all ministers. Right now, the authorities that have been granted can be used in different manners by different ministers. The conditions for each of the different authorities vary by legislation. This would create a similar set of reporting requirements for all ministers.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Jeremy Patzer Conservative Swift Current—Grasslands—Kindersley, SK

Right now, though, does the Minister of Health—I forget which other ministry you said; I think it was maybe transport—currently have a reporting mechanism in place? If they started having this ability to do sandbox in 2019, was their reporting mechanism in place at that same time?

3:35 p.m.

Senior Director, Red Tape Reduction Office, Treasury Board Secretariat

Brennen Young

There are transparency requirements in the legislation that they must publish the orders they use for the exemptions or they must publish the changes to the schedule they have, but there's no reporting back to Parliament.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Jeremy Patzer Conservative Swift Current—Grasslands—Kindersley, SK

You guys are handling the red tape review as well. Is that correct?

Does your work inform or relate to the comprehensive expenditure review that Treasury Board also has going on right now?

3:40 p.m.

Executive Director, Red Tape Reduction Office, Treasury Board Secretariat

Jenelle Power

It doesn't.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Jeremy Patzer Conservative Swift Current—Grasslands—Kindersley, SK

That's completely separate.

There's a promise to cap but not cut public service jobs, but now, all of a sudden, there are 40,000 public service jobs on the block. Has there been a memo circulated through your department talking about those job cuts?

3:40 p.m.

Executive Director, Red Tape Reduction Office, Treasury Board Secretariat

Jenelle Power

That's not within our purview. I can't comment on that.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Jeremy Patzer Conservative Swift Current—Grasslands—Kindersley, SK

Is your department going to be impacted by these job cuts?

3:40 p.m.

Executive Director, Red Tape Reduction Office, Treasury Board Secretariat

Jenelle Power

I can't speak to that, unfortunately.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Jeremy Patzer Conservative Swift Current—Grasslands—Kindersley, SK

What about something like the Impact Assessment Act and, by extension, the Major Projects Office? Is that something your office is reviewing?

3:40 p.m.

Executive Director, Red Tape Reduction Office, Treasury Board Secretariat

Jenelle Power

No, it's not. We would have conversations with the Major Projects Office around the red tape reviews because one of the horizontal reviews touches on some of their work, but they're a totally separate office from ours.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Jeremy Patzer Conservative Swift Current—Grasslands—Kindersley, SK

Okay.

Obviously, they put the Major Projects Office in place because there is too much red tape and there are too many barriers to getting projects done in Canada and they're trying to supersede that. Does your work inform that a little bit? Could you add a little bit more on what that relationship looks like?