Evidence of meeting #24 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sandbox.
A recording is available from Parliament.
National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
At the end of the day, it's the deputy heads who have control in terms of who will receive an early retirement incentive or a notification. It's the deputy heads who are responsible for managing that risk.
Liberal
Pauline Rochefort Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON
I want to mention that 12% of targeted early retirements are senior executive positions, I believe.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Thanks.
We'll go back to Mr. Gill for two and a half minutes. Then it's Ms. Khalid for two and a half. We'll finish with Madam Gaudreau for two and a half.
Conservative
Harb Gill Conservative Windsor West, ON
I apologize to Ms. Rochefort for jumping in. I've been a union member for 30 years, so I couldn't help it.
Conservative
Harb Gill Conservative Windsor West, ON
I'll go back to the original AI question, Ms. DeSousa.
Your members are being trained. Is that fair to say? Are they being consulted and protected as this AI is being rolled out? Are the tools being rolled out first, and then they look at any efficiencies? If things don't work out, who's taking the blame if there's blame to be assigned? Are your folks—the public-facing people—getting the blowback?
National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
Regarding artificial intelligence, it depends on the department. Various tools have been introduced. I'm all in favour of making our members' jobs easier, but the tools cannot replace the person. That's our perspective.
What I can tell you, in terms of consultation, is that we have been notified as to what some of those tools are. In some cases, departments have, in fact, just introduced them. Are they co-developed? Is there feedback? It varies from department to department and agency to agency.
Conservative
Harb Gill Conservative Windsor West, ON
If you had to guess a percentage, what would you say is the amount of consultation that's happening or not happening?
National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
Oh, boy, that's a tough one. Like I said, it depends on the department and agency. Percentage-wise, I couldn't give you that because it varies so much. There are some that are very consultative and others that aren't. That's problematic.
Conservative
Harb Gill Conservative Windsor West, ON
Who has been most consultative, and who has been the least consultative?
National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
Oh, boy. I'll use Phoenix as an example. We attended meetings and told them there were problems with the Phoenix program. We were in meetings for years. They kept delivering presentations. We provided feedback with the issues. They launched it in 2016. We told them there were still problems. They got rid of the backup data, which meant that we had no system to go back to.
Like I said, it depends on the department and the agency. That would be, probably, the worst of them all.
National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
It was $5 billion plus, because we're still not finished.
Conservative
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
That was very generous of you, sir.
Despite there being real disagreements, as you've outlined, among the public service, your office and the government, do you think there are areas where the government and PSAC are aligned to better provide support to your members and to the public service as well?
National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
Without a doubt, I can tell you that we have been presenting different ideas and have been providing feedback. In some cases, that feedback is taken, and in some cases, it's not. It's the employer who has the right to manage, after all.
We would like to work together for the betterment of not only our members, but also all who reside in Canada, because that's the ultimate client. We want to do better.
The question is, what is true consultation? That's the real problem. We are told information. There's a lack of consultation.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
I appreciate that.
You have different jurisdictions across the country. You are federal. Do you also work with provincial counterparts or provincial public service in terms of best practices or things to watch out for so that you can learn from each other, etc.?
National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
Without a doubt, yes. We do have members who fall under provincial and territorial legislation. When the federal government acts, we see a domino effect provincially and territorially. We do have other affiliates that we work closely with.
Liberal
Conservative
Bloc
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
I'll quickly go back to the decision‑making flowchart. I've never had a job in a department. My only experience is in business and in managing my own money and doing what I want with it. However, being a member of Parliament means working with public funds and deciding how to use them wisely.
This brings me to the subject of our discussion, which is regulatory sandboxes. Unless you tell me otherwise, a deputy minister has a great deal of power and control over the ability to allocate and make proposals. The minister can, by decree, opt out of some of the measures that we're talking about today. How does this affect the current workforce? Not only is there little or no consultation, but they don't know whether they'll keep their jobs. Moreover, they're wondering how much say they have in what happens. If there are cuts, are they supposed to think that this is just how things go?
National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
We know from working in the federal public service that there is a political vision, a political priority that's done, and that transitions down through the various ministers and then to the department heads, without a doubt.
Over the last little while, we've decentralized the decision-making. That means departments and agencies are often working in silos. There is no consultation happening across the board. What makes it difficult is the departments and agencies, for example, have more autonomy, and then there isn't that safeguard. Using the national, for instance, the Treasury Board Secretariat and the Public Service Commission should have oversight over the departments. In the past, we were able to do this type of consultation by dealing with the Treasury Board, and they would be able to look at the full public service as a whole and see the impact to it. They would be able to say, “Okay, there's a vision here.” Now you don't have that.