Evidence of meeting #24 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sandbox.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Harb Gill Conservative Windsor West, ON
Hence it's the complaint or the concern that Madam Gaudreau has with regard to oversight. The fox is guarding the henhouse, so to speak.
Executive Director, Red Tape Reduction Office, Treasury Board Secretariat
There are a number of transparency measures baked in, as I mentioned, around the annual report, and the ministers have to make all of their decisions public.
Conservative
Harb Gill Conservative Windsor West, ON
I'm sorry to interrupt, but we've had way too many scandals over the past 10 years to believe that any of that actually works.
Executive Director, Red Tape Reduction Office, Treasury Board Secretariat
I can't comment on what's happened in the past, but this is how this is designed.
Conservative
Harb Gill Conservative Windsor West, ON
That wasn't your fault. I'm not blaming you for it, obviously.
Nevertheless, is AI one of those things you're also using to implement these various ideas of a sandbox?
Executive Director, Red Tape Reduction Office, Treasury Board Secretariat
A sandbox could be used to test out AI, for sure. It's a really good use case. It's actually the way.... A lot of regulatory sandboxes in other countries are set up to test AI specifically. That's a very good option if we wanted to use it and try it in a small, controlled way to see if it would be a good idea to use that AI in a broader way in the country.
Conservative
Harb Gill Conservative Windsor West, ON
Will that have an impact on the number of regulators you have in, let's say, ministry X?
Executive Director, Red Tape Reduction Office, Treasury Board Secretariat
I can't speak to what might happen in the future. I can just tell you what it's designed to do right now.
Conservative
Harb Gill Conservative Windsor West, ON
Currently, the government is trying to reduce the number of workers they have in the federal government. That's the question I have. How is that going to have a projected impact? You must have some idea since this is what they're trying to do.
Executive Director, Red Tape Reduction Office, Treasury Board Secretariat
I can't speak in terms of numbers of impacts in the future.
There have been some regulatory sandboxes, but few ministers have these authorities now. It hasn't been a widespread authority.
Conservative
Harb Gill Conservative Windsor West, ON
Are you consulting with unions that are involved in various ministries? Do they have a say in this, in the sandbox?
Executive Director, Red Tape Reduction Office, Treasury Board Secretariat
The minister and the department are still required to undertake consultations of any impacted groups when they do these exemptions, so it would be up to them to determine their interaction with the union.
Conservative
Harb Gill Conservative Windsor West, ON
Therefore, it's entirely up to each ministry to decide whether they want to consult with the unions or not.
Executive Director, Red Tape Reduction Office, Treasury Board Secretariat
We give guidance. We encourage collaboration with jurisdictions that are impacted, with other stakeholders and with indigenous peoples, but they have to decide what is best in their situations.
Conservative
Liberal
Pauline Rochefort Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Do I have five minutes again?
Liberal
Pauline Rochefort Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON
Okay.
Maybe I'll put in layman's terms how I understand it, and you can confirm whether I understand it correctly.
To a certain extent, a regulatory sandbox is to ensure that when a regulation comes out, it fits. It doesn't need to be modified. It doesn't need to go back to the drawing table and be redone. It doesn't need to take six years, as you pointed out; it can be done faster. As part of this process, from what I understand, you identify the various stakeholders that are impacted or concerned, and you bring them to the table. They all participate. It's not a check box. They work together at developing a regulation that people will agree on and that will fit Canada, in other words.
Would that be, in layman's terms, a good description of a regulatory sandbox?
Executive Director, Red Tape Reduction Office, Treasury Board Secretariat
I think that's a very fair description.
You're right about working with the stakeholders. There are many ways in which this allows for more of that data collection and conversation before there's a permanent regulation. The regulators have quite close relationships with the partners and stakeholders in their sector, so they can manage this very well and use those relationships to get effective information.
Senior Director, Red Tape Reduction Office, Treasury Board Secretariat
May I comment?
Senior Director, Red Tape Reduction Office, Treasury Board Secretariat
Thank you.
Again, I'd like to underline that a lot of the best practices you're talking about are codified in the policy on regulatory sandboxes that the regulators will have to follow. All these consultations, for example, and the type of analysis we would want regulators to undertake are part of this policy. It is there, and they would be required to follow it.
Liberal
Pauline Rochefort Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON
Going back to Madam Jansen, there was a good question. I appreciate the question about the public interest.
As I was listening to that excellent question, I was reflecting that it would perhaps depend on the situation, context or regulation. I guess “in the public interest” would not necessarily be the same, based on whatever it is we're examining or studying.
Would that also be a fair conclusion?
Executive Director, Red Tape Reduction Office, Treasury Board Secretariat
I think that's fair.
Obviously, the legal experts doing the drafting provide their expertise on what the best wording is, but the reality is that different sectors might use this. Agriculture is going to be very different from transport or bringing a new medication to the market under Health Canada. They're very different realities. The legislation did have to be crafted to ensure that those realities were taken into account while not creating additional barriers or red tape to using it because we were too prescriptive in how it was written.
Liberal
Pauline Rochefort Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON
We read a lot about Canada's productivity. They compare us with the United States and how, sometimes, we're slow as a country to bring innovation forward. In a certain sense, I view this framework as one that provides Canada with an ability to move a bit faster.
Would that also be a fair statement?
