Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Dec. 12th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

On clause 9 we have a motion by the NDP. On your sheet, NDP-1 is on page 12, colleagues.

I will invite Mr. Dewar to introduce that amendment.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I would like to introduce the amendment on page 12, noted as NDP-1. Simply stated, Chair, it is that Bill C-31 be amended in clause 9 by replacing line 41 on page 3 with the following:

Subsections 55(1) and (2) of the Act are

This is a bit like a puzzle, Chair. To explain to members why I want to make this amendment in the way it is being done, it's important to explain how the bill is written and what it does to the act.

If you look at the bottom of the page as we have it in the bill, it says:

Subsections 55(1) to (3) of the Act are replaced by the following:

Then it scopes out subsections 55(1) and 55(2). What it does is eliminate subsection 55(3) of the Elections Act. I think that's important to note, because upon first glance one might look at it and say, this is fine; they're just making some changes to that particular section. What in fact it does is delete a subsection of the act, and that's what I want to bring to members' attention.

What we're doing by this amendment is in effect not adding, but preserving. That's very important to understand. What we're doing here is making sure that where it says that subsections 55(1) to 55(3) are replaced, we actually preserve 55(3).

If you don't have the act in front of you, it's important to note, particularly after the discussion we just had, that the act says, under subsection 55(3):

A body to whom information is given under an agreement mentioned in subsection (1) may use the information only for the purpose of establishing lists of electors for an election or a referendum held under a provincial law.

What it does is retain conditions on how information is shared. I think what we need to do, if we're concerned about how information is shared, is preserve this piece.

That's what this amendment does. It is to make sure that subsection 55(3) is preserved and not jettisoned. The reason is to make sure that we're not allowing, as is proposed under the bill, information to be handed over without conditions. The more conditions around how information is shared the better, in my opinion. So that's what this does; it retains what is already in the bill. It doesn't delete it; it keeps it in place.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you, Mr. Dewar.

Monsieur Proulx, and then Mr. Reid.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I have a quick question for the panel. My understanding is that clause 9 is redrafting the entire subsections 55(1), 55(2), and 55(3) into subsections 55(1) and 55(2). Could you tell me if I'm right or if I'm wrong again.

[Natasha Kim]

That's definitely correct.

What this provision was meant to do is implement the committee's recommendation at 2.19, and the purpose of that was to address the drafting in the current act at subsection 55(3), which both the committee and the Chief Electoral Officer recommended be clarified. As it's worded now, in saying that information the provinces use from the list of electors can only be used for the purpose of a provincial election or referendum, it could be interpreted very strictly so it could lead to results like the province not being able to share back with the federal government in terms of updating the federal list of electors. Basically, it's a clarification, and what proposed subsection 55(2) in the bill provides is that any such agreement would need to have conditions that would protect personal information that's shared under that agreement. That's how it was addressed.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

From listening to Mr. Dewar, I have a suspicion that he's alleging that we are removing powers in the preparation of the list. Are we losing anything? Are we removing anything, or are we making it easier and more solid?

[Natasha Kim]

To an extent we're clarifying and, in that sense, making it easier for the federal electoral body and the provincial electoral bodies to share information so that their electoral lists are updated.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I'm for anything that will help the list be more complete.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you, Mr. Proulx.

Mr. Reid, please.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The original wording of the bill, which Mr. Dewar proposes to amend, was adopted with the intention of reflecting the recommendation made by this committee. However, that recommendation was made by this committee in the context of, among other things, people's ages being made available.

I'll just ask our witnesses this. Now that we've made this change and we are giving the list to the parties under the amendment that was just done, does this affect what is going to be turned over to the provincial electoral authorities or is it still the same list?

[Natasha Kim]

This provision actually deals with the information that's derived from the national register, which already includes the date of birth in it, so provincial electoral authorities also use the date of birth in terms of matching proper electors to ensure that they're updating the right information. The amendment that was adopted won't--

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

So it has no impact?

[Natasha Kim]

No is the short answer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Are there other comments?

Mr. Dewar, please.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I have a couple more points that I think are worthy of comment. First, notwithstanding Mr. Proulx's points, this was based on the amendment, and the need to keep this part of the act was based on testimony we heard from witnesses, particularly Mary-Martha Hale, who was talking about how information is shared and the purposes of sharing information. If you look at what we've done here, according to the bill--and this is new--we've said:

The Chief Electoral Officer shall include in the agreement conditions regarding the use and protection of personal information given under the agreement.

So I ask the panel, are we relying on the Chief Electoral Officer to make arrangements and to be the one to, if you will, referee or decide how the information is going to be used by those we're sharing the information with? We're relying upon the Chief Electoral Officer to do that, in the bill?

[Natasha Kim]

The Chief Electoral Officer would still be subject to the federal statutes that protect privacy information, as would provincial electoral authorities be subject to their own provincial statutes.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

My question is, we're relying on the Chief Electoral Officer to do that. I'm not saying you're creating new powers here, but simply saying we're vesting that responsibility; it continues to be vested with the Chief Electoral Officer.

[Dan McDougall]

But not exclusively through this statute.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

No, I'm not saying that.

Let's look at particularly proposed subsection 55(1), the underlined portion:

the giving of information referred to in subsection 44(2) or (2.1) that the Chief Electoral Officer intends to include in the Register of Electors,

--and then it goes on to say what was already present--

if that information is needed for establishing such a list.

My concern here, as was brought forward to this committee, is around the defining of that. I appreciate trying to help the CEO--and by design, helping us--share information to have more accurate lists. But as I had mentioned before about enumeration, there are other ways of doing that. We'll get to some of those amendments later.

So I guess my concern here, Chair, is that we've opened up the process to a free flow of information between different bodies, to make it easier, without defining the use. What we're jettisoning is exact language: “only for the purpose of establishing lists of electors for an election or a referendum”. Well, what other uses would they have for this information?

[Natasha Kim]

Their use would effectively be subject to their own provincial laws on privacy protection. The CEO himself would be restricted by the federal Privacy Act. So we use that statutorily.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

But that's my concern, Chair. We have loosened up, if you will, the accountability of how we share information. That's notwithstanding the reason; I'm with the panel and with the committee on what the intent is here.

We've said here that we'll loosen up the flow of information, but we won't define how it's used. In my interpretation, we've taken that out in terms of what I see in the bill. We've taken out “only for the purpose of establishing lists of electors for an election or a referendum”, which is exact, which is prescriptive, and which is currently in the Elections Act.

We're taking that out. We're taking that out and giving it to all provinces, if you will, assuming they're going to do it within their own election acts and laws. That's fine, but I suspect--and others have given testimony on this--that there will be a lot of concerns around this. It's not prescriptive enough.

Why not say “only for the purpose”? What other use could it have? I don't see how that relates to what we're trying to do here. If it's for other purposes, that's not what this bill is about. This bill is about elections. What other reason do we have for elections lists than elections and referendums?

So again, the jettisoning of this particular piece concerns me deeply, and it concerns others. That's why I bring this forward.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you, Mr. Dewar.

Madam Jennings, please.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

I'm a little confused by Mr. Dewar's preoccupation with this. As I read proposed subsection 55(1), pertaining to both the English and French versions, it clearly states:

The Chief Electoral Officer may enter into an agreement with any body responsible under provincial law for establishing a list of electors, governing the giving of information contained in the Register of Electors,

--and then we can skip to the end--

if that information is needed for establishing such a list.

So it's referring to a provincial body that has legal authority for establishing their provincial list of electors. The Chief Electoral Officer, at the Canadian level, may provide them with information that is contained in the national registry “if” that information is necessary for establishing the provincial list.

I think it's pretty clear.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Mr. Dewar.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I do have a final point on that, Chair.

Notwithstanding Ms. Jennings' point, I would go back to my question, which I was very deliberate in asking initially: what is the role here, and who are we giving this power to? It remains with the Chief Electoral Officer. What we're doing is we're taking away the prescriptive nature of what exists in the act now. That's my point.

You're quite right to say it “may”, but we're giving that power to one person. Albeit this person is accountable to Parliament, we've taken away the prescriptive nature of how that person shares the information. I understand what the words say. That's not the point. It's about what we're taking out.

Again, if we're sharing information to this degree, we have to be very careful how it's shared, the rules around it and the boundaries around it. As I see it, what we're doing here is we're loosening that up. I don't believe the argument for doing that has been made sufficiently here.