Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Sept. 13th, 2007

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC]

He was asked on the weekend what would happen if a masked or veiled man turned up at a polling station. In response to that question, he said that the returning officer would ask the individual to uncover his face and if he refused, he would not be allowed to cast his ballot.

Do you agree with that approach?

[Marc Mayrand]

That's one possibility, but again, I would remind you of the instructions that I gave to my staff earlier this week: any veiled individual will be required to uncover his face to establish his or her eligibility before being allowed to vote.

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC]

So then, veiled women will be required to uncover their face in the presence of the returning officer, whether male or female?

[Marc Mayrand]

They will be asked to uncover their face in a manner that is respectful of their beliefs.

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC]

What about a veiled man who shows up to vote? Certainly you can see the potential problems with this situation. The most obvious one is that twice during your press conference, and again today in your statement, you appeal to citizens' sense of civic duty. You concluded your statement today on the following note:

I remain confident that next Monday's vote will proceed smoothly in the three ridings of [...]

Why did you feel compelled to say that? I've been an MP since 1993. I've lived through by-elections and general elections, but I have never seen Canada's Chief Electoral Officer feel compelled to say he hoped elections would proceed smoothly. Perhaps it is because you fear the situation could get out of of hand.

[Marc Mayrand]

I don't deny that.

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC]

You don't.

[Marc Mayrand]

No, but just let me say this. This issue has been widely debated by the media over the past few days. Every political leader has since voiced his opinion on the subject, with various solutions having been proposed. I think people have made their views known and that all citizens have been informed about the situation. Your presence here today shows that you are keenly interested in making some adjustments and in seeing Parliament, when it reconvenes, make the amendments it deems appropriate at that time. Therefore, under the circumstances and in light of the positions adopted by the parties and their desire to amend the Act in due course, the public will hopefully have understood that this matter will need to be given priority consideration when Parliament resumes sitting.

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC]

Why is there agreement on this issue in Quebec? In what way is Quebec's Election Act so different from the federal Elections Act that Mr. Blanchet, on the eve of the March 2007 elections in Quebec and faced with the threat of matters getting out of control, used his adaptation powers—perhaps that is not the terminology used in the Quebec act—to dispel any ambiguity and to reiterate that anyone wishing to vote must agree to uncover their face? This same rule will apply in the upcoming September 24 by-election in the Quebec riding of Charlevoix. If there is agreement on this issue in Quebec, why do you persist in not clarifying this so-called interpretation error?

[Marc Mayrand]

Let me say again that neither the federal nor the provincial act requires an individual to uncover his or her face. Mr. Blanchet made a decision, based on specific circumstances and a given legal framework. Any decisions that I make must be in accordance with the framework set out for this office by Parliament and I intend to respect that framework.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you.

The time is up on that. Perhaps we can get to the rest of the questions in the second round.

Mr. Dewar, I don't have you on my list, but I'm going to offer you the opportunity. Do you want to be on the list?

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I sure do.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Then it's my pleasure to offer you, as is appropriate at this time—

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I thought it just was going to be a natural round. I apologize.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Of course. It's not a problem.

Mr. Dewar, you have seven minutes.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Mayrand, for being here today and for your team. Some of them have been before this committee before. Thank you for taking the time to speak with us today.

I want to start off with your comments about the extraordinary powers. Notwithstanding what your comments are, from my point of view it's a question of interpretation. I respectfully disagree with some of that interpretation, but it's good to have it out here.

I am pleased to see in the beginning of your comments that it's very clear that you're instructing that in the case of an elector whose face is covered, they must remove the covering. That's pretty explicit. Then we get into the machinations of scenarios in which someone could actually refuse to, and that's where the disagreement is. People agree that there should be unveiling; it's a question of what happens if they don't.

This also might be a question on the lack of due diligence on the part of this committee, I would submit as well, and on the part of the Senate as well, because I happen to know—We read in the papers last May an article in the National Post about a question around this, so it was known. It was out there. You expressed that; you communicated with the government on this. It's funny enough that just around this time it becomes an issue.

To put it in context, I just came back from Morocco. I was part of an international election observation team invited in by the Government of Morocco. Do you know what? They have veils, and they vote, and it's not a problem. It was very interesting for me, having gone through that experience. I have some literature here of women who are part of the electoral process there. There's consensus there. We made a recommendation of perhaps having more women in the polls. I'll share that with you, because I know through your report last year that Elections Canada did some good work on the issue of ethnocultural groups voting and to encourage—and I really want to underline that we're here to do that, to encourage people to vote, and I want to share that with my colleagues.

We opposed this bill, for the record. The NDP had problems because, as you know, birthdate information was going to be shared not only with all poll clerks, but with all political parties, if the bill went through the way it was amended. I'm concerned, Mr. Mayrand, that my colleagues were more concerned around this table about getting their hands on birthdate information than they were about the details of how this bill would play out—

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Order.

Mr. Dewar, could we focus on the issue of veils?

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I absolutely am—

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

I don't want to re-debate the issues of the past. Stay on the veils issue.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I think it's important to talk about the contents of the bill. Part of the bill before, when we were looking at it, was how birthdate information—

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

That's fair. Let's focus on veils—

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

The consultation, and that's what I'm getting to, wasn't.... We didn't reach far enough. I asked to have more witnesses. You mentioned people from first nations, people who are students, and people who are homeless. It was we who asked for those witnesses, and they gave us good testimony. It was fully ignored, because.... They're going to have problems. There's going to be a court challenge on this bill. We know that.

My question to you is whether you have received any concerns from everyday people about voting and the veil to date. Have you been phoned and questioned by citizens of Canada about voting and the veil?

[Marc Mayrand]

We've received several phone calls and inquiries, e-mails, most of them opposing the notion of having electors voting with a veil on.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Okay. And your response was “We will ask them to uncover.”

What I would like to ask you as well is whether, when you responded to them, anyone asked you whether there had been cases of voter fraud in the past, and whether there had been any voter fraud in the past with women voting with the veil.

Maybe I'll just ask you: has there been any voter fraud with women voting with the veil in the past?

[Marc Mayrand]

Again, I think we've been.... This year we celebrated 140 years of this confederation, and in that time we've never had an issue with veiled electors or veiled women.