Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Dec. 4th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Let's bring our meeting to order, please.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Thursday, November 15, 2007, the committee is examining Bill C-6, An Act to amend the Canada Elections Act (visual identification of voters).

We will also be studying Bill C-18, An Act to amend the Canada Elections Act (verification of residence) later in the meeting, pursuant to the committee's order of reference of Friday, November 16, 2007.

Colleagues, today we have Marc Mayrand, the Chief Electoral Officer, and his team with us again.

We certainly appreciate and welcome your presence before the committee.

Members will appreciate that we're actually studying three pieces of legislation and one motion all at the same time. I appreciate members' ability to do that and, certainly, the ability of the Chief Electoral Officer and his team to brief us on three pieces of legislation, for the most part at the same time.

What we will do this morning is begin with an opening statement from Monsieur Mayrand. Then we will go to our first round of questioning. The plan would be to study Bill C-6, for which you have a briefing in front of you, for the first 45 minutes, and then in the second 45 minutes go into Bill C-18. I want to maintain a half hour at the end of this meeting to discuss committee business and clarification of some issues that have arisen here today.

With that, I will open the floor to Monsieur Mayrand. Would you introduce your team for the record? Then if you have any opening statement on Bill C-6, the floor is yours. Thank you.

[Marc Mayrand, Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have with me Mrs. Diane Davidson, deputy chief electoral officer and chief legal counsel, also responsible for regulatory affairs; Mr. Stéphane Perrault, who's our senior general counsel; and Mr. Rennie Molnar, who is the associate deputy chief electoral officer, responsible for electoral events.

I'm here this morning to discuss Bill C-6, which concerns the visual identification of voters. Bill C-6 requires that electors have their faces uncovered when providing identification at an ordinary or advance polling station. This rule will also apply to electors who go to the office of a returning officer to obtain their special ballots.

I do not anticipate any difficulty in implementing the bill, as drafted, upon its royal assent. It provides the authority and flexibility necessary to ensure the good administration of the Canada Elections Act.

The bill raises only one technical issue: Clause 4 restricts the delegation of powers and duties by deputy returning officers and poll clerks to additional staff. This excludes the election officers already present at the polling site.

It would seam appropriate to authorize deputy returning officers and poll clerks to delegate their powers and duties to any election officer present at the polling site. This would allow a more efficient use of resources.

Moreover, it would be preferable to permit such delegation not only at polling stations, as currently provided for in the bill, but also at advance polling stations.

I have brought with me a technical paper containing the changes I am proposing to the wording of Clause 4 of the bill.

My colleagues and I would be pleased to answer your questions concerning the bill.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I'm listening with great interest to Mr. Mayrand, but I'm having a little bit of difficulty because there's a lot of noise in the room. I'd be grateful if it could be a little quieter.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

My apologies. Would members try to keep things down? If there are discussions necessary, you can step back from the table or you can exit the room. As long as we maintain quorum, that would be acceptable.

We're going to open with our first round of questioning, of seven minutes, colleagues. We have 45 minutes to go here.

We are finished the statement, so could we have someone from the official opposition party who'd be interested in questions?

Monsieur Proulx, please. You have seven minutes.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome, Mr. Mayrand, Ms. Davidson, Mr. Perrault and Mr. Molnar. It is most kind of you to have come here to meet with us this morning to discuss Bill C-6.

Mr. Mayrand, you have been subjected to an avalanche of criticism by the government because of the position you took with regard to the interpretation of the act. Following this pronouncement, the government wished to save face. Your position with regard to the presumably illegal expenses of the Conservative government during the last election has not helped get your name added to the list of people that the government has a good opinion of.

What is your view of the changes made to Bill C-6 and how do they compare with what existed previously? I would also like to know if you have obtained from your legal advisors opinions or interpretations relating to the Charter of Rights? Under Bill C-6, you would be required to verify people's identity visually. It is you who, through your representatives and contract staff, among others, would be required to carry out this verification.

Do you believe you will be able to fulfil this obligation comfortably or will it be yet another source of tension between Elections Canada and the Conservative government, as was the case when you spoke out about its potentially fraudulent expenses?

[Marc Mayrand]

With regard to the Charter and legal advice in this regard, I did not require an opinion. I believe it is up to the government to obtain this type of opinion and to draft bills accordingly. My responsibility consists in enforcing this act, as passed by Parliament.

The text of Bill C-6 that I have thus far seen provides us with sufficient flexibility to administer the law in a way that is consistent and respectful of the rights and obligations of each and everyone. With regard to its enforcement, I foresee no administrative difficulties at the moment.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Mr. Mayrand, it has already been said, during meetings that did not necessarily relate to Bill C-6 but rather to elections administration, that staff recruitment was a relatively serious problem. I, for my part, have not been faced with this problem because I live in an urban environment. However, several of my colleagues tell me that, in rural areas, it can be quite difficult to recruit workers for elections, and, in the case at hand, I should rather be talking about female workers.

How can you say that this will not cause a problem, whereas it appears you have difficulty recruiting women to work in polling stations, and under Bill C-6, you will have to hire women to visually identify women whose face is hidden but who will agree to remove their veil before another woman?

[Marc Mayrand]

First of all, I would remind you of the amendment to Clause 4 that I suggested in order for us to make more effective use of the staff available and thus avoid having to hire additional personnel.

Furthermore, there will be preparatory work in advance of elections. We will have to, through the returning officers, examine the demographic profile of each and every riding and do our utmost to isolate those areas where the issue risks coming up or creating a problem. Furthermore, in the context of our recruitment activities, but especially in staff deployment, we will have to be mindful of assuring the presence of appropriate staff in those areas where the situation is likely to arise.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

But how will you determine those areas where the situation is likely to arise? Nowhere is it stated in this document that Muslim women are the only persons entitled to vote with their faces hidden. The women farmers group from so and so town from across the way could very well decide one of these days to go and vote not veiled but “scarved“ because of the cold. Your analysis of voter profiles will certainly not be able to predict that kind of an event. If these women present themselves at a polling station and no female worker is there to take care of them, what will you do?

[Marc Mayrand]

All voters will have to show their face, no matter what their reason is for having it veiled.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Except in those exceptional cases where health reasons are involved.

[Marc Mayrand]

Exactly. The provision therefore applies to all voters. It remains to be seen if other groups will require special measures or refuse to show their face for different motives. To my knowledge, there will be few such cases. In any event, there will be a preparatory exercise in advance of elections in cooperation with returning officers.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Mayrand.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you.

Thank you, Monsieur Proulx.

Mr. Lukiwski, you have seven minutes, please.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Thank you, Chair. I'm not sure I'll need all seven minutes.

First I'll make just an observation, Chair. I find it somewhat amusing that Monsieur Proulx is trying to make this once again into a political partisan affair by suggesting that the government in some way has backtracked on its position or bowed to some pressure on this bill, when in fact, I would point out for the record again, all members of this committee not only had a consensus but had unanimity, when we first had Monsieur Mayrand here, in support of this bill. The Liberal Party has subsequently decided that they, upon closer examination, don't support the bill.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

How do you know that?

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Well, from comments on the record.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I'd make a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

As you've pointed out many times, Mr. Proulx, I'm the chairman of the committee. What's the point?

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

As a point of order, how can he say that we are not in favour—that we are against—when we haven't decided?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

It's an opinion.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

That's not what he said.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

I'm yielding the floor to Mr. Lukiwski.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

Once again, we will certainly see. If Monsieur Proulx is suggesting that perhaps they do support the bill, I'd welcome that support when it comes time to vote. I think the record will show, however, that my opinion is more than justified, that they have changed their position on this bill.

However, that fact notwithstanding, Monsieur Mayrand, I have two things.

Number one is that I appreciate in your brief you say that now that this bill is coming forward, if it is given royal assent you would have no difficulties in administering the bill as written. I appreciate that. I think the point I was trying to make at our last get-together was that the will of Parliament is such that we believe this bill should be implemented. I appreciate your support for administering all aspects of this bill once it receives royal assent.

What I would ask you to comment on—and it is my only question, Monsieur Mayrand—is clause 4. I appreciate the fact that you have brought forward an amendment. I would just ask you, and your officials perhaps, to expand upon that clause a little bit and on why you feel the need for this amendment to be made in this bill.

[Marc Mayrand]

Clause 4 allows the DRO and the poll clerk to delegate their attribution to supplementary staff who have been hired for the particular event. It seems to restrict the delegation unduly to supplementary staff. The amendment I'm bringing forward today would allow the DRO and the clerk to delegate their functions, their attribution, to any electoral employee who is present at the location.