Evidence of meeting #9 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-18.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:20 a.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
No, not that I know of.
11:20 a.m.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
Thank you.
I say that, Mr. Chair, because I'm concerned about the politics of this bill. The concept is fairly sound: have visual identification. The problem is the politics of this bill. And the problem with Bill C-31 was that we were given a flawed bill that we didn't necessarily need; so here we are....
My question to you, Mr. Mayrand, is whether there any other means, through regulation or giving discretion to election officials, by which we can confirm the identity of voters other than through legislation.
11:25 a.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
For the particular issue at hand, I think it requires legislation, because we, as electoral officials, cannot add conditions to the exercise of the right to vote.
11:25 a.m.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
Let me try it another way.
My recollection from when we last met was that you do require your DROs, district returning officers, and election officials to ask people to visually identify—
11:25 a.m.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
I've just gone through a series of questions noting that up until recently that hadn't been a problem.
I guess my question—and maybe I should leave it with you to respond back to the committee—is whether there are other ways, perhaps, than legislation. I mentioned regulation. There are requirements to give electoral officers the power to discern whether or not someone is complying other than through legislation.
I again underline this, Chair, because we have a piece of legislation making up for a flawed piece of legislation. I certainly don't want to be back here in two months, or whenever, after an election to find out this is a problem as well. For the record, we'll state that's why our party did not support Bill C-31. It was a problem, and it remains a problem.
I will just leave it with our guests to respond if there are other ways—perhaps through regulation—that we can look at this.
The other thing—and we've already heard from our guest on this—is that I understand Mr. Mayrand can't give us a legal opinion on this legislation; that's not his job. So I'm just wondering if the clerk or the chair has had any request to departmental officials, say, from Justice, on the legal aspects of this bill. In other words, are there legal concerns—so we don't end up back here again in a couple months saying we have to have another bill to make up for this bill?
I leave that question for you, and I thank our guests for being here today.
11:25 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear
We have one minute left, if Monsieur Mayrand wants to respond in any way to that.
I understand there's been a request to the chair to find out a legal opinion. We will find that out, for certain. I do believe the minister, when he was here as a witness, mentioned there wasn't; but we'll check into that.
Is there any response?
11:25 a.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
Very quickly, there's no regulatory authority under the Canada Elections Act to deal with this kind of situation.
I would refer the committee to the procedure put in place during the last byelections, requiring all electors to display their faces at the time of voting to validate their admissibility for voting. The act provides that those who decline to do so are allowed to take an oath, and that's what occurred during the byelections. So those who refused to display their faces were required to take an oath. If they refused to take an oath, they were refused voting.
11:25 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gary Goodyear
Thank you.
We'll move to our second round, colleagues.
Madam Robillard, for five minutes in this round.
December 4th, 2007 / 11:25 a.m.
Liberal
Lucienne Robillard Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I would like to welcome Mr. Mayrand and his team. I will perhaps be asking questions that have already been put by my colleagues, and if such is the case, then I apologize in advance. Road conditions being as they were, I arrived somewhat late this morning.
Mr. Mayrand, today, if I were to go and vote at a polling station, I could show two identification cards that do not bear a photo. Is that the case?
11:25 a.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
That is correct.
11:25 a.m.
Liberal
Lucienne Robillard Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC
Henceforth, will every person be required to show his or her face?
11:30 a.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
That is correct.
11:30 a.m.
Liberal
Lucienne Robillard Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC
How do you make the link between the two identification cards and the person's face? What extra proof does that provide and how do you establish a link between the two? If the person comes with photo ID and is there, I can make the link visually. If there is no photo on the ID cards, then how can this link be made? What is the advantage?
11:30 a.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
As I indicated in September, unless the election officer, the poll clerk or the returning officer on site recognizes the person, there is no other means. Seeing a person's face does not allow for comparison with the documents presented or the information at the disposal of election employee.
11:30 a.m.
Liberal
Lucienne Robillard Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC
I would like to come back to the question from my colleague from the NDP. In order to ensure identification, should the person be required, in your view, to show a photo?
When you look at the photo, you are able to establish if it is the same person, as is the case with a passport or any other ID with photo. Would that be one of your recommendations?
11:30 a.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
One of the difficulties identified during the course of the study of Bill C-31 was the absence of a national identification card. Because of this, the only cards that truly fill the requirements of Bill C-31 are cards delivered by provincial authorities. However, even these cards are not provided universally to all voters. There was a need to include in Bill C-31 a list of identification documents that could be used as an alternative, and most of them do not bear a photo.
11:30 a.m.
Liberal
Lucienne Robillard Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC
In that case, what is the point of seeing the face of the person?
11:30 a.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
That is the process that was adopted in September. It allows for the validation of the eligibility of the voter, who must be 18 years of age and be a Canadian citizen in order to vote. Indeed, a visual check of the voter allows one to estimate his or her age. But this is not a rigorous verification.
11:30 a.m.
Liberal
Lucienne Robillard Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC
Alright.
Mr. Mayrand, let us take the voter who exercises his or her right to vote by mail. How will you verify that voter's identification? How can we be sure that the ballot you receive is truly that which was filled out by the person whose name appears on the voter list?
11:30 a.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
The voter choosing to vote by mail must submit proof of his or her identity. This proof can be provided by mail. The voter must provide his or her name and address as well as his or her signature on an official document. That is the method used to determine the voter's identity.
11:30 a.m.
Liberal
Lucienne Robillard Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC
Is any verification done by Elections Canada, on a sampling basis, for example, in order to determine if there has been fraud or some other problem in the case of mail-in votes?
11:30 a.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
Using independent sources, I would say not. There are procedures that allow for the validation of the fact that the person who has requested the voting ballot is the person sending in the documentation. I could not say that we would confirm the voter's identity by calling upon independent sources.
It is obvious that infractions... Nevertheless, there is a trail, there are documents, namely the signatures on the documents that are sent to us.
11:30 a.m.
Liberal
Lucienne Robillard Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC
If I present myself in person to vote and show you two false ID cards stating that I am 60 years old, and you look at me and tell yourself that that is possible, then what are you going to do to verify that it truly is Lucienne Robillard who is there to vote?
11:30 a.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
The act provides that if electoral staff has any doubt, it can require the taking of an oath and document the situation. I cannot hide from you the fact that in the end... There is no system that is completely impervious to well planned fraud. The information and statistics available show that our electoral system is not a victim of systematic fraudulent abuse. Let us take the case of the Trinity—Spadina riding. We examined 10,000 cases there and in the end we were able to determine that one or two could have amounted to fraud.