Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Dec. 4th, 2007

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Perhaps it was. I haven't seen it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Order, please.

Which motion did you want, Mr. Reid? Was that the original motion?

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

It was not the original motion. It was Madam Redman's motion--

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

It was Madam Redman's motion from a few minutes ago. Do we have it written out, or is Madam Redman going to read it?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. James M. Latimer]

Mr. Chair, perhaps I could read what I've written down and Madam Redman could confirm whether or not that is in fact the motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

That sounds like the way to go.

[The Clerk]

Perhaps I could read out what I've written down for the motion, and perhaps the committee could clarify if that is the motion.

It is moved by Ms. Redman:

That the Committee resume consideration of the First Report of the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, and when the Committee completes its consideration of the Report, that the Committee proceed immediately to Clause by Clause consideration of Bill C-18.

Is that correct, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

That's the way I interpret it. Madam Redman is nodding that is her--

[The Clerk]

The amendment that has been moved by Mr. Lukiwski was:

That the motion be amended to read that the Committee proceed immediately to Clause by Clause consideration of Bill C-18, and when that is completed, that the Committee resume consideration of the First Report of the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Perhaps I'm the one who needs clarification. That does not sound as if we were asking for an additional meeting, Madam Redman. Would you like to clarify--

[An hon. member]

That's in the report.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

It's in the report, of course. Then I think I might be the one who is being confused. I think Mr. Reid's interpretation is correct that the motion is suggesting we adopt the motion to have extra meetings right now before we deal with clause-by-clause. Is that your interpretation, Mr. Reid?

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

That's my interpretation.

My interpretation as well is that if we got into the report and began debating it, at that point it would be clear that any amendment that might be proposed to that report would in fact wind up effectively being blocked by the Liberals, so unless we accede to the report in exactly the manner it's written, they would simply make it impossible for us to go forward with clause-by-clause. Effectively, this holds clause-by-clause and the bill hostage to the acceptance of the report in an unamended format. That's unfortunate, because it may be the case that--

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I'm dealing with this, through you.

Could you ask Mr. Reid why he's so afraid to adopt this three-minute report so we can move on?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Mr. Proulx, I can't accept that as a point of order or a point of clarification. And you can't interrupt a commentator. I wouldn't allow it if you were commenting.

Mr. Reid, please continue.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Mr. Proulx does raise a valid question, and this is actually what I've been working around to addressing in my remarks, Mr. Chair.

I mentioned to the subcommittee that I very much wanted to have a government member on there. Had a government member been present on the--

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I have a point of clarification, Mr. Chair. Would you please remind Mr. Reid that you sit on the steering committee. If you are not a government member, what are you, sir? Have you become an independent?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Absolutely not, Mr. Proulx. I will remind Mr. Reid that I am a non-voting member on the steering committee, as chairman.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

I could be wrong, and I wasn't present obviously, but my impression is that if this subcommittee is structured the way other subcommittees are structured, the chair does not cast a vote and doesn't participate in the discussions of the committee except to try to find consensus, as opposed to advocating the point of view, if you like, of the team he is on or the party of which he is a member.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

In fact, as further clarification, the chair of a committee is a neutral participant and does not have a vote unless there is a tie.

Mr. Reid, please continue.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

My point had been, of course, that had there been a government member who was going on as someone who would advocate the government position and who would articulate a point of view that I could present, I would have presented to that person certain arguments to take to the subcommittee that might have resulted in it producing a different report.

Obviously my own concerns with regard to the legitimacy of dealing with this subject matter at all are already known. They're already on the record. They date back to a ruling I sought from the chairman some months ago, when I asked the chairman to rule on a version of this motion. I don't think it was exactly the same motion, but I asked him to rule it out of order.

That motion had asked us to engage in a fact-finding process, which is in parallel with a process that is being conducted in the court system. As I pointed out, parliamentary committees are ill suited to the task of doing this sort of thing. Parliamentary committees are meant for other purposes, but not for findings of fact.

The purpose of these hearings is therefore outside of the--

[An hon. member]

Get to your point.

[An hon. member]

You're going to use your three minutes for this.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Order, please. Gentlemen, am I losing order of the meeting?

[An hon. member]

Of course not.