Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Feb. 8th, 2011

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much for coming today. I'm subbing in this committee, filling in for Mr. Mulcair, but I don't think it takes a lot of research to conclude that where the rubber hits the road here is the.... Your actions don't seem to follow a common-sense approach, what an ordinary person would do. That seems to be the issue.

I don't know whether you made a mistake in the early days, and find yourself being backed further and further into a corner, or.... I accept, of course, that what you say could be 100% the truth. Our role is to try to make that determination.

I have just a few questions. Number one, you just mentioned that when you get a final document like a pre-budget consultation report, you look through it to see if there is anything salient for certain clients. Do you have clients who are impacted by what was in the draft document?

[Lynne Hamilton]

Not having done a thorough scan of the document, I couldn't answer that. As I said, I would require days to go through and determine this. A budget has wide-ranging...it's massive. A budget could have something for everyone in it, for every Canadian, so it would take a number of days to drill down to find out.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

You're under oath, and this can be easily checked in reference to your clients, when you publicly register that you're representing them. Anyone from a common-sense point of view could look at the pre-budget consultations and say that this impacted, and this impacted.... You're suggesting to us that there was nothing prominent in the draft that you thumbed through that in your mind would in any way affect any of your clients.

[Lynne Hamilton]

I didn't look through it enough to know. I didn't do a thorough analysis. I didn't get a good read. I thumbed through quickly.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

This comes from a trusted friend, and he used the words “peek” and “infancy”. You said you thought it was the final document, but he uses the word “infancy”. If somebody says to anybody, “Hey, you want to have a peek?”, there is a curiosity that kicks in just because we're humans. And then character, ethics, and other things start to kick in too, as to whether this is the right thing to do. But when one reads “peek” from someone well positioned within government, especially someone with your experience.... I know I would find it difficult not to to look at that, if I had the time. And if I got something from a colleague saying, “Hey, Dave, have a quick peek at this”, well, I'm going to. Human nature is that I'm going to. Otherwise, you live in this world, as Mr. Lukiwski, said, and three hours later somebody says “Well, didn't you get the e-mail? What's the matter with you? Where've you been?”

So I'm having trouble believing that you would just glance at that, that you saw the word “peek” and it didn't trigger anything in you to say, “Oh, that might be interesting”.

[Lynne Hamilton]

As I've recounted many times now, I received the e-mail at 8:37 in the morning. I was putting my kids on the bus. I got in my car, I went to my job. I have clients in for the day. I'm running around. A couple of hours later, I got back. I skimmed through some e-mails on a quick e-mail break. Out of courtesy, I did a quick note back just to let him know that I got the e-mail and that I hadn't ignored him, and then I went on with the day.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

That's fine, I understand your answer.

I have two quick things, then, flowing from that, and I don't want to go too far on this. I'm going to be very sensitive. But when you say “I heart you”, that may be your regular “Love you”, “Thanks, hon”, or whatever. But it also could also refer to somebody who said “Hey, have a quick peek at this”, and then somebody takes a quick peek at it and shoots back an e-mail because it was the first chance you had to peek at it. It's a quick little message.

So if we asked you to show whether that's your regular sign-off, could you do that?

[Lynne Hamilton]

It was until recently. Obviously, with the amount of exposure that phrase has received, I've tended to eliminate it from my vocabulary.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Okay, the last question that I have—

[Lynne Hamilton]

No, I'm not finished.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

How much more is there on that?

[Lynne Hamilton]

I just want to say that it's an expression that I would interchange with “thanks very much”, or “much appreciated”.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Great. I hear you, and I wasn't trying to suggest anything more. But when I'm looking at the words, we're trying to revisit the moment. We're using words like “peek” and then you say that.

You're friends with Mr. Ullyatt. You see him socially, and others as a group. Remember, you're under oath and anybody who would be aware of the contrary could put you in an awful lot of trouble. During any of your discussions, sitting around having a beer with buds, did it ever come up that Mr. Ullyatt was indeed at these hearings with his MP boss? Would any of your network of friends know that he happened to mention, “Oh, I'm doing these interesting pre-budget consultations with my MP”? Did that ever come up?

[Lynne Hamilton]

I'm conscious of the fact that I am under oath. I can't recall a time specifically when someone said “Mr. Ullyatt is on the pre-budget consultation committees”. But I requested some time with his boss, as a client, in early October.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Was that having to do with the pre-budget consultations?

[Lynne Hamilton]

Not necessarily with the pre-budget consultations, but in the course of doing the rounds--

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

As a lobbyist.

What I'm getting at is that you had mentioned you had no idea he was on this committee and doing that work. I just wondered, among all your circle of friends, when you're kicking around--“What are you doing? How is your day? Is anybody doing anything exciting? You're on the Hill; what's happening there?”--it never came up in conversation?

Again, I'm linking it to your saying you never expected any kind of document from him, and I'm suggesting there may have been a time when you knew socially that he was there. It may not have been your main purpose in terms of pre-budget consultation, but you were certainly lobbying his boss, so you had an interest.

There's a closeness there. Then to suddenly get an e-mail from him one morning that includes the word “peek”...and again, no context for you whatsoever.

Thanks, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

A quick answer?

[Lynne Hamilton]

I don't think I know what the question is for that. I don't know.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

My time is done. I can't--

[Lynne Hamilton]

Sorry.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

That's fine.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Okay, we might get back to it.

Monsieur Proulx, you are next. We'll see if we can squeeze in a five-minute round.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, Ms. Hamilton.

[Lynne Hamilton]

Good morning.