Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 16th, 2011

[Mel Cappe]

That is your political analysis and I cannot challenge it.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I know I'm repeating myself, but in terms of the question we are concerned with today, even all the documents we were given today were not covered as Cabinet confidences.

[Mel Cappe]

Apparently not.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Earlier, I asked several questions about the F-35s and the G8 and G20. We are asking for the original estimates and the costs of hosting the G8 and G20 summits.

Is there something to hide in terms of the original cost estimates?

[Mel Cappe]

Well, the original estimates may be Cabinet confidences. If you want to obtain the best estimates or the estimates at the time, and that sort of thing, you are entitled—I believe—according to the Speaker's ruling, to have access to them.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

At the outset, you said that you were like Mr. Walsh—in other words, you always agreed with the Speaker.

[Mel Cappe]

Absolutely.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

So, it is legitimate for a member of Parliament to want to receive these documents. There is a difference between—

[Mel Cappe]

You're talking, not about documents, but about information.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Information, yes—what we need to fulfill our responsibilities.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you.

Mr. Cappe.

[Mel Cappe]

Could I have just one last word?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

I'll give you the last word. You've become one of my favourite professors, so carry on.

[Mel Cappe]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

It was really just that since I've been Sir Humphrey, I thought I should give you the wisdom of Sir Humphrey, when he is telling his Prime Minister that it is faster to do things slowly, it is costlier to do things cheaply, and it's more democratic to do things secretly. I actually believe that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you very much. Please don't let word get out to Professor Russell that I've found a new favourite professor.

Thank you all.

We're going to suspend for half an hour. We're back at four o'clock.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

We're back.

It's four o'clock. We have witnesses with us. Alister Smith is with us today.

Alister, you have an opening statement. If you'd like to do that, Mr. Smith, and introduce the person with you, then we'll go to questions.

[Alister Smith, Associate Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat]

Thank you, Chair and members of the committee.

We are pleased to be here to answer your questions.

With me today is Donna Dériger, Acting Senior Director, Office of the Comptroller General. Ms. Dériger is responsible for the Treasury Board Secretariat Guide to Costing.

We'd be happy to answer your questions on the guidance we provide to departments on the costing of initiatives or on the role of the Treasury Board in approving funding for the implementation of government initiatives.

Departments are expected to prepare cost estimates in memoranda to cabinet and Treasury Board submissions on the basis of the guidance provided by the secretariat through the TBS guide on the preparation of TB submissions and the TBS “Guide to Costing”. Cost estimates provided by the departments are the responsibility of the deputy head and require the sign-off of the department's chief financial officer. Treasury Board's role is focused on the assessment of submissions prepared by departments for funding when initiatives are ready for implementation. Funding decisions are then compiled into the estimates documents tabled in Parliament. Departments report to Parliament annually on their planned spending and on their actual results.

We would be pleased to elaborate further on these processes.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Super.

Thank you very much.

Mr. Brison, for seven minutes.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Thank you very much.

I welcome Mr. Smith and Madam Dériger here today.

I was a member of the Treasury Board committee of cabinet. I worked with Treasury Board during that period of time. In fact, I want to commend Madam Dériger, who was one of the authors of the “Guide to Costing”. Obviously, she will know it very well.

On page 10 of the “Guide to Costing” of Treasury Board, for the costing of a new initiative, incremental funding, it says:

All the costs of a new initiative for a department must be known, including costs of employee benefits and accommodation. For a new initiative that is incremental to existing programs, it is necessary to know the incremental financial impact; that is, the costs that change as a result of the decision.

For cabinet to render a decision on a piece of legislation, it is required, based on this Treasury Board guide, for Treasury Board and Finance to work with the specific department--in this case it would be Justice and Public Safety--to provide that information, correct?

[Alister Smith]

Let me start, and I'll turn to Ms. Dériger on this.

The costing is done by departments based on our guidance, based on the guidance that Donna and her folks provide to the departments. When any item or a new initiative is presented in a memorandum to cabinet or a submission, it is supposed to follow the principles in the “Guide to Costing”.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

So in the case of the government crime bills, these 18 bills, this information was provided to cabinet in each case?

[Alister Smith]

Yes, if a memorandum to cabinet is presented, then cost information is prepared as part of that.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

The reason I ask is that earlier one of the Conservative members, Mr. Armstrong, was questioning whether this information even existed. I just wanted to make sure my Conservative colleagues were aware that not only does this information exist, but it is required, based on Treasury Board guidelines, to exist and to be provided to cabinet.

Once the legislation is tabled in Parliament, what is the policy relative to cabinet confidence around the costing of that legislation--that is, once it's provided to Parliament?

[Alister Smith]

The information on the bill is presented by the minister tabling the bill. It's up to that minister to determine what information he provides on cost at that time.

As bills progress and change and as we move toward implementation of the actual initiatives, the costs themselves change. As the ministers were explaining earlier today, there is high-level cost information provided when bills are tabled, and as the initiatives evolve over time and come closer to implementation, sometimes those costs evolve and become more precise.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

But according to the ATIP act—we had Madam Legault here earlier, and also Mr. Cappe was here—that kind of information provided to cabinet during cabinet's deliberations about a particular piece of legislation, once the decision is rendered, is no longer cabinet confidence.