Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 16th, 2011

[Alister Smith]

I realize Mr. Cappe was talking about discussion papers under section 69 of the Access to Information Act. Those discussion papers, if they existed, could be exempt, as I understand it. But that is not the way cost information is presented. Cost information is presented as part of a memorandum to cabinet, and therefore it's a cabinet confidence when the bill is being studied by cabinet.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Would you agree that members of Parliament need to have, are required to have, to fulfill our jobs, the information on the costs of the legislation we are voting on?

[Alister Smith]

Yes, and I believe the ministers have provided that information.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

When, today or on February 17? Because it's two separate sets of information.

[Alister Smith]

Well, the information provided today I think.... Listening to the testimony earlier today by ministers, I believe they said the information provided today elaborates on the information they provided earlier.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

The original deadline was in November, in fact. Why would the government have waited four months to provide this kind of information to Parliament? Can you remember...? First of all, answer that question, please.

[Alister Smith]

I'm sorry, I wouldn't be able to answer that question.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

When legislation goes to Parliament.... Can you think of other examples in your—how many years have you been in government?

[Alister Smith]

Twenty-seven.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Can you give us some other examples where cabinet confidence has been used to deny Parliament the costs of legislation when Parliament asked for it, in your 27 years?

[Alister Smith]

First of all, I'm not an expert on access to information or cabinet confidences and really cannot address those kinds of issues in a professional way. Those are questions more for my colleagues at the Privy Council Office.

All I can say is what we require when bills are presented to cabinet, or later on in particular, which is our focus in Treasury Board, when initiatives are implemented. A full costing is required and provided.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

You provided full costing. So the government had the full costing information on this legislation before a decision was rendered, before the legislation was tabled in Parliament.

[Alister Smith]

Let me go back to what I said earlier. When a bill is considered by cabinet, you do have high-level costs. As a bill gets closer, after consideration by the House and approval and implementation, those costs can evolve, so the costs do tend to become more precise over time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Mr. Brison, I'm sorry, but your time has completed.

Mr. Reid.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Smith and Madame Dériger, for being here.

Just to follow up a little bit on what Mr. Brison was saying in his question, he asked about when the costs are put in place, and you said the costing becomes more precise as the bill moves its way through the process. Where would the very first attempt at costing take place? Would that be at the time that an MC is prepared or after that? I don't know.

[Alister Smith]

No, at the time an MC is prepared, we and Privy Council Office require costs to be provided, so there would be at least high-level costs provided at the time legislation, a new bill, is being considered.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

That's at the time and actually forms part of the memorandum to cabinet. There would be a cost estimate.

[Alister Smith]

That's correct.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

When you say “high-level costs”, is that another way of saying costs that are not yet very precise, that are ballpark, and as time goes on what we're really talking about is a process of making them more precise?

[Alister Smith]

Absolutely. As more and more of the implementation details fall into place, it becomes easier to identify, break down, and be very specific about the costs. When we get further in the life cycle to a submission being prepared for Treasury Board, the costs become very detailed and very precise and may be segmented for different phases of the initiative. So at that stage there's a great deal of information, and quite detailed information, provided to Treasury Board.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Such as, for example, the kind of information we're seeing in some of the submissions given here today?

[Alister Smith]

Yes, and it becomes even more precise as some of these bills that have not been passed yet become law. As initiatives are rolled out, the information on cost becomes much more specific because you know the phasing, you know the components, you know all the players involved, all of whom are putting together their individual costs, and you get a much more precise picture of the costs.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

I actually may be wrong about this--I'm not sure--but I'm imagining that when a bill goes before a parliamentary committee and expert witnesses come there, in some cases they may provide testimony that is germane to the question of costs, that may actually help to illuminate things. Is that correct?

[Alister Smith]

That's correct.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Okay. So in a sense, until a bill has gone through the House of Commons and the Senate and made its way on and received royal assent, until that moment, the costing process could potentially be adjusted?