Procedure and House Affairs Committee on May 9th, 2013

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

I call this meeting to order.

We will continue our study of electoral redistribution in the province of Ontario. We have a couple of witnesses today who want to share their thoughts with us about their ridings.

Mr. Sullivan, would you like to go first? You get five minutes to tell us your intriguing story, and then we'll ask you very hard questions.

[Mike Sullivan, NDP, York South—Weston, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you for the opportunity to address the committee as it examines the final report of the federal electoral boundaries commission for Ontario, and I want to thank the commission itself for the excellent work it did in trying times with not being able to please everybody.

I'm appearing before you not as a complainant, but in response to an objection filed by the member for Eglinton—Lawrence, who seeks to transfer some 30,000 people from the western part of his riding to mine. I am here to object to his objection.

As you know, the commission for Ontario started its work in February last year with a mandate to fit 15 new ridings into the province. It had to respect geographical boundaries, community of interest, and try to limit variations in population to plus or minus 25% of the provincial target quotient of 106,213 people per riding, which is between 79,660 and 132,776 people.

The Ontario commission provided a proposal on possible riding boundaries in July of last year for broad public consultation, held hearings in October and November, including two days in Toronto, and presented its report to Parliament this past February. I participated in this process and made both a written and oral presentation to the commission. As you know, the commission recommended the status quo for both our ridings, which is a recommendation I support and my colleague from Davenport also supports.

It was not until I received notice of this committee's hearing that I became aware that the member for Eglinton—Lawrence had proposed something affecting my riding of York South—Weston. He did not consult with me or any of the communities I represent, and according to the commission itself, he did not propose this measure to the commission during its public hearings.

It was a total surprise to find out that there was an objection that would affect my riding and how significant a proposal it was. I'm disappointed that the member for Eglinton—Lawrence is not here today to speak to you about his proposal and give me the ability to respond to his concerns. I understand that Mr. Oliver will be providing you with written material to back up his objection, but I would ask for the opportunity to be able to review his material and respond to these arguments prior to this committee's making a recommendation.

My objection to the proposal being advanced by the member for Eglinton—Lawrence is based on two of the principles that guided the commission in its work. First, it creates a riding, my riding of York South—Weston that would greatly exceed the variation permitted for the population of ridings in Ontario. Second, it would join neighbourhoods that have no community of interest with York South—Weston.

The area of Eglinton—Lawrence that Mr. Oliver suggests should be transferred to York South—Weston lies between the CNR railroad tracks on the west, along Eglinton Avenue on the south, Allen Road on the east, and Highway 401 on the north.

This area, according to the 2011 census, is home to 30,887 people, nearly one-quarter of my current riding. The addition of this area to my riding would create a federal electoral district of 147,493 people, which is 138% of the target population quotient for Ontario, well above the 125% guideline. It would create the largest riding in terms of population in Ontario. There's no justification for this.

Second, there is no community of interest for the neighbourhoods between the CNR tracks and the Allen Road in the Eglinton—Lawrence and the communities I represent west of these railway tracks. This was a factor recognized by the commission in its report when it considered proposals affecting our mutual boundary of the railroad tracks.

Indeed, the municipal electoral boundary for the City of Toronto between ward 12 in the east part of my riding adjoining ward 15 on the west side of Mr. Oliver's riding is the CNR railroad tracks. These tracks are a significant physical barrier dividing these communities, penetrated only by Lawrence Avenue, Castlefield Avenue, and Eglinton Avenue over a 3.7 kilometre length.

It is absurd to suggest adding 30,000 people to a riding that is already within 10% of the provincial quotient as my riding of York South—Weston is. To bring us back to that target population quotient would have a large domino effect on neighbouring ridings, basically, redoing the commission's work in Toronto.

There is no justification for this. Mr. Oliver is trying to solve a problem the commission has already dealt with and, instead, is creating more problems than can be reasonably dealt with by this committee today. I would ask therefore that this committee reject Mr. Oliver's objection to the commission's recommendation regarding Eglinton—Lawrence on the basis that it artificially joins to York South—Weston neighbourhoods with whom there is no community of interest and, in so doing, creates a riding that is far too large, exceeding the commission's guidelines for appropriate riding population.

I would be happy to answer any questions you have.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you, Mr. Sullivan.

Yes, what would you like?

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

It has been the normal practice of this committee if we have discussions that involve the boundaries between riding A and riding B to have both people here at the same time.

Am I to assume that Mr. Oliver was not invited, or is it the case that he chose not to come? If he isn't coming to this meeting, is he coming to a later one?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

He was invited. He sent a written recommendation and has chosen not to appear.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

I see. Okay, that answers the question. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

All right.

We're going to get to questions and answers after. I'm going to let Mr. Adler do his bit first.

Mr. Adler, you're up for five minutes, please.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I'm very happy to be here today. I'm not used to sitting on this side of the committee table—

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

You'll get a feel for what it is like now.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

I will have a new appreciation for the role of the witness from here on in.

I want to thank you for giving me the opportunity to be here today.

I also want to thank the electoral boundaries commission. They have a very difficult task at hand, and I truly appreciate the hard work they put in.

However, I am proposing a very minor change to the riding of York Centre. The current proposal is to carve off the portion from Bathurst Street to Yonge Street, from Steeles on the north and south at the hydro right-of-way, which is just north of Finch, and put that portion into the riding of Willowdale.

My objection is based on a number of factors, one being population, the other being community of interest. I'll get into all of these in a second. What we're proposing essentially is to move the boundary from Bathurst Street and to include it within York Centre east to Peckham Avenue, and then from Peckham Avenue south as it curves around and then goes straight south to the hydro right-of-way. It's taking back roughly 5,000 people. Under the proposal of the electoral boundaries commission, we're currently at 100,000, so this would put us closer to the 106,000-person target.

My understanding is that Willowdale has about 110,000 under the electoral boundaries commission's proposal. Taking away 5,000 would bring them down roughly to their target of 106,000.

This is the most compelling of the reasons why that area should remain within the riding of York Centre, and that's community of interest. There was 100% community of interest support for this argument. The riding specifically has a large concentration of Russian-speaking voters. York Centre has the largest number of Russian-speaking people of any riding in the country. And these are people from not just Russia but from the countries of the former Soviet Union. By carving off, by making the eastern boundary Bathurst Street, we're segregating a large number of those Russian-speaking people. We also have the third-largest Jewish population of any riding in the country. It would also segregate a lot of Jewish people into the riding of Willowdale and interfere with the community of interest.

I have letters of support from a variety of community groups in the area that I'm requesting be placed back within York Centre. This is all in your packages. They include the Canadian Association of World War II Veterans from the Soviet Union, the Russian Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, the Russian Canadian Education and Recreational Centre, the Toronto Russian Film Festival, Rabbi Sean Gorman of the Pride of Israel Synagogue, the Jewish Russian Community Centre of Ontario, the Russian Express weekly newspaper, Rabbi Milevsky from congregation B'nai Torah, and Archpriest Sergei Rasskazovskiy. They all are in support.

In terms of the effect that it will have on Willowdale and the opinion of my neighbouring colleague, MP Chungsen Leung, he is in complete support. I have a letter outlining his total support, which has been distributed to the committee and is now being translated, I understand, and which you will have by the end of committee. It's a letter that both of us have signed. He is in total support of what I am proposing here.

It has absolutely no domino effect whatsoever. It's a minor change that we're proposing that both MPs agree upon. It meets the community of interest criteria. It meets the population criteria, and I think it should be included back within the riding of York Centre.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you, Mr. Adler.

Mr. Reid, you're first for the questioning of the witnesses.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

I have five minutes, I'm assuming?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Let's go for seven minutes. We'll try to do one round of seven minutes and see if that's going to do it for us.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

All right.

I'm going to start with Mr. Adler.

I apologize to Mr. Sullivan. I'm in an awkward position where I only have your facts.

Mr. Adler, I've been looking at the map of the proposal for Toronto versus the map for the boundaries commission's final report submitted to us. Last week we dealt with the fact that in the Scarborough area, which is to say east of Victoria Park Avenue, there was a complete redrawing of the boundaries between the proposal and the report. But in the area that is bounded on the east by Victoria Park Avenue, on the west by the boundary with Mississauga, on the north by Steeles Avenue,and on the south by the 401, I could be wrong but it looks to me like no changes whatsoever have occurred between the proposal and the report. The proposal and the report are identical.

I realize you would not be in a position to answer that for everybody in the region, but am I correct that in the case of the riding of York Centre, the boundaries do not change between those two documents?

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

I think you're looking at the riding of Willowdale.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Yes, both Willowdale and York Centre appear to have identical boundaries in the proposal—

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

In the proposal, yes, absolutely.

The commission did have hearings in Toronto, to which we sent a number of community representatives to appear. The representatives sat there all day and were not heard. The reasoning was that the commission just ran out of time and had just allowed for the one day.

Our objections weren't even heard at that point—ergo, the lack of any significant change within those boundaries.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

I just want to be clear on the exact proposal.

The current boundary between York Centre and Willowdale is the only change that appears to be made to the boundaries of York Centre. So the rectangular area that's north of the transmission line, east of Bathurst Street, south of Steeles Avenue, and west of Yonge Street is the only change that the boundary commission proposed making?

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

That's correct.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Okay.

Essentially what you're proposing in so many words is taking the western half of that rectangle and moving that western half from Willowdale, where the commission is moving it, back into York Centre where it currently is.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Yes.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Okay.

Obviously you can see where I'm going. I am left with the impression that the boundaries commission was unable to hear concerns about the initial proposal—the community of interest issues— at the hearings, and therefore would have been unaware at this point of this kind of concern.

The next question I have is about the population variance of the two ridings under the boundary commission's recommendation currently before us versus what you're recommending. What are the changes to each of the two ridings, please?

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Under the Federal Electoral Boundaries Commission proposal, it leaves us at 100,000 and leaves Willowdale at 110,000. We're asking for 5,000 back, which would bring us to 105,000 and take Willowdale down to 105,000.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Okay.

The member for Willowdale is Mr. Leung. Have you consulted with him?

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Yes, we have a letter of support from him. As I said during my presentation, it's being translated into French right now and will be made available to all of the members very shortly—probably by the end of committee today. I have his full support in this proposal.