Procedure and House Affairs Committee on June 18th, 2014

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

If that's the case then, my understanding is that the mailings in question here were close to two million. Is that correct? There were certainly well over 4,500.

[Mark G. Watters]

Yes, I would agree, Mr. Lukiwski.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Okay, so in that case, there is no reimbursement given.

I'm curious, and again we'll discuss this perhaps a little later, why someone, if they were producing a mailer that they felt was in proper order, would not want to use House printing services to get reimbursed. It would appear though, if they thought it was a political mail-out they couldn't get reimbursed for, or if they couldn't get approval by the House, they might want to use an outside printer and pay for it themselves so they could avoid that embarrassment. However, then of course you couldn't use franked envelopes, and that's exactly what I believe has happened here.

Let me go back again to the MPs who are using outside printing for ten percenters and householders. Would we be able to get that information from printing services as to how common that is? In other words, if someone wanted to use an outside printer for less than 4,500 copies and get reimbursed, surely there's a record in printing services. Yes...?

[Mark G. Watters]

Mr. Chair, all householders and ten percenters are prepared by the House. I think what the member is talking about is other types of things that might be printed, but householders and ten percenters are produced strictly by the House, and therefore, the bylaws are applied. They are reviewed by printing and mailing services prior to publishing, and if there is an area that's grey, then there's a conversation with the member about possibly altering their ten percenter or their householder to make it compliant.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

If they wanted to mail out something like we saw with the NDP, where it's not considered necessarily a ten percenter but they were going to put it into franked envelopes, they could certainly have in-house printing services produce that and be reimbursed if the content was acceptable. Yes...?

[Mark G. Watters]

That's correct. Printing and mailing services would prepare material at the request of members, subject to the entitlements, the paper allowances that members have to respect, but they would also ensure compliance with the bylaws.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Since the research and analysis on the investigation determined that the NDP content of these mailers was not acceptable, and therefore, improper and in violation of the rules, one would suspect if they presented those to the in-house printers, they would be rejected perhaps, which is a good motivation not to do it in-house.

That's an opinion. I won't ask you to comment on that because it's not within your purview.

[Mark G. Watters]

Thank you.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

My question goes back to whether printing services will be able to provide information to this committee as to how many, whether you call them mailers or communication pieces, have been used by MPs and approved by the House. Would they have that information?

[Marc Bosc]

I believe we can get that information to the committee, certainly. We'll have the information.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you. Please do; through the clerk.

You have four more minutes, Mr. Lukiwski.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Thank you very much.

Let me ask you something about, again, an inference, I suppose, by the NDP. There has been certainly some criticism by the NDP saying that this was a political decision, that the BOIE did this for political purposes. That infers the BOIE makes all of these decisions in a vacuum.

Is that true, or are they based on research and analysis provided by non-partisan professional House administration officials? In other words, the decision might have been made by the BOIE, but they were in receipt of information provided by your officials, and they used that information and analysis to make their decision. Is that a correct assessment or a correct statement?

[Richard Denis]

Mr. Chair, yes, it's correct. The material that goes to the board is always based on a team effort, if I can say, from the House administration where specific topics that need to be researched are prepared by financial services, legal services, other services of the House, and information is provided to the board so they have the full picture and are able to make their decisions.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, I'll go back to one of my earlier comments when I asked Mr. Bosc whether or not we'd be able to see a copy of that report with their analysis and research. He said that would be a decision of the BOIE. I'm recommending heartily to this committee, that, as a committee, we make a request to see that report, to see exactly what that research and analysis showed so we know on what basis the BOIE made its decision. The NDP is continually trying to say this was a political decision only.

I would like to see the information provided to it before we can properly get an indication of why that decision was made and when it was made.

Let me ask you one other question. We're talking about the recovery by the House administration, by the board, of $36,309, but there is another $1.17 million outstanding, which, you have identified, would be owed to Canada Post. I think the next logical step for this committee would be to ask someone from Transport Canada or Canada Post to come in, and to ask them what steps they may be taking to recover that money.

Would you have any comment? Since it's out of your purview, I doubt whether you've had any conversation with Transport Canada—I don't know why you would—but do you think they would be able to provide some information or shine some light on the fact that they may be in a position to try to recover $1.17 million from the NDP?

[Marc Bosc]

That's a question for those officials, Mr. Lukiwski.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

I certainly think then, Chair, for our next meeting, we should look at getting Transport Canada officials in here and asking them a series of questions.

Have you had any communications with Elections Canada or the Chief Electoral Officer yet, respecting the decision of the board?

Since my time is limited, while you're trying to get that information, let me ask yet another question. Again it goes back to an inference from the NDP that somehow, if these meetings were held in public, things might be different. Let me just ask you this. Based on your analysis and investigation, even if the meetings of the BOIE were held in public, would that in any way have changed the recommendations that you made to the board?

[Marc Bosc]

Our duty to the board does not change in that respect.

To answer the previous question, the statement by the board indicates that the information being sent to Transport Canada would also be shared with the Chief Electoral Officer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Lukiwski.

Mr. Scott, go ahead for four minutes, please.

[Craig Scott, NDP, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think it is important to point out that one reason Conservatives, for example, have not been subjected to the same kinds of requests by the BOIE to provide memos and opinions and everything else related to mailings is that the BOIE is organized in a partisan, majority government-dominated fashion.

I want to go to the Canada Post point. We had quite an amazing situation in the House recently. Last week, the Minister of Transport, despite constantly talking about being at arm's length from Canada Post and therefore saying, “Ask Canada Post; don't ask me” when we ask anything else to do with Canada Post, in response to a question planted by a Conservative MP, said:

...I also expect that those members will refuse to pay back Canada Post, and that is why today I spoke to the CEO of Canada Post to ensure that he understood what was happening. He does. He takes it very seriously. Canada Post will be developing a plan to deal with the situation.

I'm particularly grateful to the minister for making so clear, in such a ham-fisted way, that this is nothing but a political exercise, but the question here is did the BOIE ask the Minister of Transport to insert herself in this way by contacting the CEO of Canada Post?

[Marc Bosc]

First of all, Mr. Scott, again, I can't comment on discussions at the board.

That being said, I think it's important to specify that the Speaker chairs the board. There is no majority on the board, and the Speaker, of course, is a non-partisan actor in this as chair of the board.

Mr. Watters is pointing out to me that the board has an obligation to deal with the matters brought before it, and that is what it does.

[Craig Scott, NDP, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Thank you.

The minister also thought she was providing a defence when she then said outside the House, “No directives have been given in this case, it was just a phone call to ensure that they understood the issue and that they would be looking into it. That's it.”

She is a lawyer, but she didn't appear to grasp that it makes it even worse that she made these calls to influence—and, I dare say, pressure—the Canada Post CEO without even the pretense of legal authority. She said, “No directives have been given”.

I imagine you may not be able to answer this question, but is this involvement of a minister in a BOIE matter appropriate?

[Marc Bosc]

We can't comment on that, Mr. Scott.

[Craig Scott, NDP, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Thank you.

Should there be any doubt that the minister is pressuring Canada Post and intending to use it in the most instrumental fashion as a tool of the government, consider the press release she also sent:

I will be discussing with the head of Canada Post in the coming days for a report on their plan to recover these funds.

Despite the fact that Canada Post is reimbursed, it has to be Transport Canada that deals with this.

Rest assured, every single penny that was misspent by the NDP will be paid back....

Now, putting all of these statements together, how would courts supplying administrative law look on the fairness of any Canada Post decision to seek payment from MPs when that decision comes from the fact or at the very least the appearance of political interference?

[Marc Bosc]

Again, Mr. Scott, this is a process entirely outside the House, and we can't possibly comment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Mr. Lukiwski, you have two spots if you want them.