Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 27th, 2018

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby South, BC]

I'm sorry about that. It's worth thinking about.

[Serge Joyal]

—as you know, I'm a veteran of constitutional negotiations stemming back into the 1970s.

I have always resisted the use of the word “nation” to try to—how should I say this?—singularize groups in Canada. As I say, we are different peoples. We come from different historical backgrounds. Our presence in Canada stems from various centuries.

As the aboriginal people have stated, “We're here to stay.” They will never leave. They have been here from time immemorial. My ancestors came here 400 years ago. We're here to stay. I won't go back to Bergerac, where my ancestors come from. It's the same for any new Canadians that were sworn in yesterday. What we try to share is the right of each person to try to develop according to his or her choice within a complexity of identities.

I always resist saying that they are the French Canadians and they arrived in 1604 or 1608. Then the Brits came in 1763, and then there are others who came. I always resist having a vision of Canada that divides. We come from so many different backgrounds, and the nature of Canada, I should say, is to celebrate that, to recognize that.

As I say and as Senator Patterson has clearly mentioned, those are inherent rights of the aboriginal people as much as I as a French Canadian have the inalienable right to speak my own language as much as I want and to speak the other language as much as I want.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby South, BC]

It does differ when we start to codify and we start to allocate resources. I'm wondering how we are allocating resources—not just in this case—to enforce these different identities. I think this is a very important enforcement of an identity within our Parliament. I think it's a very important step forward, but I'm wondering if we're doing enough. They say that advance notice would be great, because it's administratively difficult to have simultaneous translation, yet in the Northwest Territories they have accommodated this.

Is this going far enough?

[Serge Joyal]

It's a beginning. We are trying to listen.

The Supreme Court has said about the charter that it should be interpreted in a liberal and purposive way. When I say liberal, I don't mean the Liberal Party, but in an open, evolutionary way. I think that all the rights included in the charter and the Constitution have been interpreted throughout years of evolution. We're at the preliminary phase of recognizing the rights that aboriginal people inherently have to speak their language. We won't change the system overnight, and I would not suggest to you to do it overnight. We want to make sure that we recognize their identity and their capacity to speak their language. We'll adjust the system

according to the needs,

as much as they request it and as much as the budget allows. The minister has announced in this budget some funds to support the teaching of a second language in English provinces and in Quebec. We would hope to have much more money, but that's the amount of money we have.

On the other hand, you cannot deny the money. That would be equivalent to denying the rights. It would be meaningless, not worth the paper on which it's printed.

As I say, it's up to the responsible persons of the day, the government of the day, the MPs and the senators, to see how we will adjust the system. Both of us are happy to be here to talk to you about how we have adjusted the system in the Senate, because we thought it was the proper thing to do. We didn't work under a Supreme Court injunction that said, “Now you can speak Inuktitut or you can speak Cree or Dene.” We thought it was the right thing to do as Canadians.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Thank you.

We have a tiny question by Ms. Boucher, and then we're going to go on to our other witnesses.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Good afternoon. Your comments are very interesting. I normally sit on the Standing Committee on Official Languages, where this topic comes up too.

My question is very simple. I have indigenous friends and they tell me that their culture has a number of dialects. How can we go about choosing from the dialects that are spoken? Each community has its own language.

Can you enlighten me on that, Mr. Joyal?

[Serge Joyal]

There are a number of indigenous languages and large language families, including Algonquian, which has at least five different dialects. The same goes for the Cree and Ojibway families. There are regional variations.

I believe that it is up to each indigenous member of Parliament or senator to determine which language he or she will use, so that it becomes possible to find interpreters. In fact, it is more a matter of ensuring that we can have interpretation than of determining absolutely what the three indigenous languages spoken in the Parliament of Canada will be. I do not believe that should be rigidly established at the outset.

As you said, in a number of communities, the language has to be learned again and better taught, not only through the oral tradition, but also through the education system of the indigenous peoples themselves. Things will evolve. Basically, it is about a member or a senator choosing to speak a certain language and having an interpreter available to translate that language specifically.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Thank you very much, Senators. We certainly appreciate your presentations here. There's some very valuable information.

[Serge Joyal]

I apologize. I'm getting enthusiastic about this.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

That's great. Your passion is great for this topic.

Now we'll add Floyd McCormick, Clerk of the Yukon Legislative Assembly, and Danielle Mager, Manager, Public Affairs and Communications, Legislative Assembly of the Northwest Territories.

From Mr. McCormick, you have some brief comments and also the law in the Yukon, which was sent to you the other day. Just this morning, you got a statement from the Northwest Territories as well.

I understand that you don't have much of an opening statement, Floyd. Is that true?

[Floyd McCormick, Clerk of the Assembly, Yukon Legislative Assembly]

That's correct, Mr. Chair. I would be prepared to just take questions from the committee members.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Thank you.

It's great to have you with us.

I'm sorry for the delays for you guys, but being clerks, you know how parliamentary procedures work. We get delays sometimes.

Danielle, if you'd like to make an opening statement, you're on.

[Danielle Mager, Manager, Public Affairs and Communications, Legislative Assembly of the Northwest Territories]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the committee for inviting me to speak to you today.

As you mentioned, my name is Danielle Mager. I'm the Manager of Public Affairs and Communications with the Legislative Assembly of the Northwest Territories. In my role, I am responsible for booking interpreters and for scheduling the broadcasting network.

As you're aware, in the Northwest Territories, we have 11 official languages. It's the only political region in Canada that recognizes that many languages. The population of our territory is approximately 45,000, with half of that population residing in the capital city of Yellowknife. Approximately 10% of the population, about 5,000 people, speak an aboriginal language.

Of these official languages, nine are aboriginal and belong to three different language families: Dene, Inuit, and Cree. Aboriginal languages are most frequently spoken in smaller communities throughout the Northwest Territories.

In the NWT legislature we have 19 members, three of whom speak an indigenous language on the floor of the House on a regular basis. This includes our Speaker, who speaks Tlicho every day during session. We have three interpreting booths in our chamber, and we have the ability to interpret in three official languages of the Northwest Territories. When we are in session, we switch these languages off every week, but we do have Tlicho on a permanent basis for the Speaker.

If a member chooses to read his or her member's statement in an official language of the Northwest Territories, they will be given an additional 30 seconds to read the statement in both English and the official language. If the member does intend to use an official language on the floor of the House, we do request that they provide us at least 24 hours' advance notice so that we have the ability to book the interpreter. As you can imagine, in the Northwest Territories it can be challenging to bring people into the capital city when we have 33 communities throughout the entire territory.

I do have some things that I've culled from the members' handbook about the official languages services. First, it states:

The Official Languages Act of the Northwest Territories guarantees Members the right to use any official language in the debates and other proceedings of the Legislative Assembly. As set out in the Act the official languages of the Northwest Territories are Chipewyan, Cree, Tlicho, English, French, Gwich'in, Inuktitut, Inuvialuktun, Inuinnaqtun, North Slavey and South Slavey.

Under “Classification of Official Languages Services”, it states:

At the outset of each Legislature, the Office of the Clerk will consult with each Member to determine service level requirements.

Under essential service, it states:

An Official Language will be designated “essential” if:

a Member indicates that he or she has limited or no ability in English and requires the use of another Official Language; or

a Member indicates that he or she has some fluency in English but prefers to use another Official Language where possible. If a language is deemed to be essential, simultaneous interpretation services will be made available for all sittings of the House and all Committee meetings at which the Member is scheduled to attend.

Under “Provisional”, the handbook states:

An official language will be designated as provisional if a Member indicates that he or she is fluent in English but desires to use another official language at times during Assembly proceedings.

In such instances, interpretation services will be provided when reasonable advance notice is given to the Office of the Clerk that such language services are desired. The contact for such requests is the [manager of public affairs and communications]. Members should endeavour to provide at least four hours' notice if they wish to have provisional interpretation services available during a House or committee proceeding. Every effort will be made to find a qualified interpreter.

Under “Non-Essential”, it states:

An Official Language would be designated as “non-essential” if no Member indicates the ability to use the language during Assembly proceedings.

In such instances, interpretation services in this language will not be made available as a matter of routine practice.

Under “Translation of Documents”, the handbook states:

Written translation services, where reasonable and practicable, will be provided for designated documents in all of the essential languages, as well as upon reasonable request for documents in any of the provisional and non-essential languages.

Designated documents include, but are not limited to, the Orders of the Day, bills or bill summaries, amendments to bills, motions and committee reports.

Under “Broadcast Services”, it states:

The Office of the Clerk will endeavour to provide public broadcast coverage of House proceedings in as many official languages as [feasible]. The broadcast coverage will be provided on a rotational basis and will attempt to achieve equality of status and equal right and privileges for all official languages.

In the legislative assembly, we broadcast to all 33 communities throughout the territory and also to the rest of Canada through Bell ExpressVu and Shaw Direct. We also provide House proceedings on all of our social media platforms.

That concludes my opening statement, and I am available for any questions the committee might have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Thank you very much. Meegwetch. Mahsi cho. Gunalcheesh.

I'll go to a five-minute round for each party and then just open it up informally for people who still have questions.

Monsieur Graham, from the Liberals, go ahead, please.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I notice in the briefing notes we received that Yukon permits any of the three languages to be spoken but there is no guarantee of being understood. Is that correct?

[Floyd McCormick]

That's correct. The languages act provides that anyone participating in a parliamentary proceeding can address the proceeding in English, French, or a Yukon aboriginal language, of which there are eight, but there is no duty to provide interpretation or translation.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

For written records, if they speak in one of the eight languages besides English and French, is the Hansard translated or how does that work?

[Floyd McCormick]

We work with the members to try to get a transcription into the Hansard. We usually rely on the member to provide whatever written notes they might have in order for the transcript to reflect the language in which the member addressed the House.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

In the Northwest Territories, is there a bank of translators and interpreters available who you keep a database on, so that you have people for every language available on relatively short notice? You said translation is always available at the scheduled meetings for these members who have it as an essential language. However, for example, from time to time, I go to committees that I'm not a member of. If they want to do something other than their regular scheduling, do you have translators ready to go, on call, for the essential languages?

[Danielle Mager]

We do. We have a bank of interpreters that we go to. For instance, for our Tlicho interpretation, we have one main interpreter we go to, but if she's not available, there is someone else we can go to. It's the same for most of the languages.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Do you have a database for translators even for the languages that are not deemed essential in your legislature?

[Danielle Mager]

We do.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Okay, and how is Hansard handled in your case?

[Danielle Mager]

It is the same as in the Yukon. It would be the members who would provide us with the written documentation that we could provide to Hansard.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

You mentioned earlier something about “reasonable request”, that on reasonable request, translations are provided. Have there been a lot of unreasonable requests?