Procedure and House Affairs Committee on May 4th, 2020

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

When you look at the House itself when it's sitting, members have the right to walk out or stay in the room. That is their prerogative. Therefore, for us to determine that they have to be there when the questions are being asked or when proceedings are taking place is something you may want to study as a committee; however, I would recommend that it happens in virtual time just like it does in House time. There is not much difference.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Our mandate here did not exclude us from discussing voting virtually. How would we accomplish this when it comes to voting, given that we know there is such an issue about people being in the House when it's time to vote?

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

That is something we'll have to look at, or the committee will have to look at it.

That is why I mentioned when I first started, with Mr. Brassard, that I'm hoping this committee doesn't stop on May 15 with all of the procedures, because we will have changes coming up and more crises in the future. If we take this crisis and learn and build on it, we might be able to improve not only virtual sittings but actual sittings in the House when we return to normal.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Our objective and our mandate in this committee was to establish some kind of virtual Parliament in light of COVID-19.

Could it possibly be one of the recommendations of this committee that we recommend further, more in-depth, study be done, so that we can build a system that can be deployed on a moment's notice in a year or two years or three years from now if necessary?

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

I would hope that's the case. The committee has to determine what it wants to study.

What we're in right now is a crisis, and you've been brought together at this point because of the crisis. It doesn't mean that a crisis isn't going to happen again. If it does, I would hope that what we've learned right now we could use in future crises. As I mentioned a few seconds ago, if some of the results you come up with can be transferred to the House to make it more operational and make it work more cohesively or efficiently, that would be a real bonus coming out of this.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Right.

I think I have a minute and a half.

Ms. May, would you like that minute and a half?

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Definitely. Thank you.

I have two quick questions, Mr. Speaker.

One is, were you able to follow or get reports on our meetings with representatives from Wales, Scotland and the U.K.? If not, are you generally familiar with the approach that the U.K. Speaker has taken to what they call “hybrid Parliament”, where some members are in person and some are on video screens?

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

I was not. I saw some of your proceedings, but that was one I wanted to see and never got around to. Unfortunately, time—

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

It was fascinating.

I'll just say quickly that the Speaker in the U.K., just as you do, emphasized privilege and said there should be nothing that bars a member of Parliament from attending in person; except, on public health advice, they don't want people to travel within the U.K., to try to get to London if they don't have to.

So some members appear on large video screens and pose their questions to ministers who are physically present in the House. The large video screens are present in the chamber at the same time that a few people are there physically. This deals with this issue of whether some people are precluded from participating. Of course, as you know, in the U.K., the Speaker receives letters from members requesting to ask a question.

I don't know whether you have any views on how doable that would be for our chamber.

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

I think we're moving toward that. If it's possible, we should go ahead with it, as we make sure technologically that we can do that.

The concern I have, and what I have read about the chamber in Westminister especially, is how to determine who is in the chamber. I don't want to see a situation where it's not the individual members who decide if they are in the House but it's another party—and I mean “party” as someone else, not a political party—determining who is in there.

Especially when you start looking at people who are far away, people who are close.... England is a very compact country compared to Canada, and it really does make a difference.

This virtual meeting will help people quite extensively, especially in rural and regional areas where they can't come down.... I remember you telling me about your trip taking a day and a half, which normally does not take a day—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

Thank you, Speaker Rota.

I want to interject, if I may, for a moment. I'm not giving my preference on any of these recommendations, but I want to state again that the study does include all ways that members can fulfill their parliamentary duties while the House stands adjourned over public health concerns caused by COVID-19. Voting could be considered a member's parliamentary duty, so I don't think it's necessarily precluded.

In the order of reference that was given on April 11, the House did propose that the committee include the following elements in its study: first, temporary modifications of certain procedures; second, sitting in alternate locations; and third, technological solutions, including a virtual parliament. We're looking at all ways that members can complete their duties.

I just wanted to put that out there so we have a frame of reference again, as we're on our last meeting of witnesses, and so we can elicit the testimony we wish in order to go over the draft report and our recommendations and of course any dissenting or supplementary opinions.

Next up on the speakers list is Madam Normandin, please.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to talk a bit about the issue of parliamentary privilege. Ms. May has already talked about it. I asked other witnesses a question about it last week.

If the number of in-person sittings are increased, doesn't that risk infringing the parliamentary privilege of some parliamentarians who have health problems, are older or are more at risk?

I'd like your comments on that, Mr. Rota.

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

It's a possibility. In the past, if a member couldn't come to the House, it wasn't because of an external obstruction. The member couldn't come, either because of a storm or because he or she couldn't make the trip. It was because of something external. That's one thing.

Breach of privilege is when something prevents members from doing what they are supposed to do in the course of their work in the House. It's not a big difference, but it's a very important one.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Am I to understand that this could be a form of obstruction by Parliament, since Parliament controls the number of sittings that will be held in person?

If Parliament were to increase the number of in-person sittings, could that be a form of obstruction?

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

Yes, that could be one argument.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Could you now tell us about the ratio we might have between the number of in-person sittings and the number of virtual sittings? You told us that you wanted to take a gradual approach.

Do you feel comfortable gradually increasing the number of virtual sittings while maintaining the number of in-person sittings we currently have?

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

Yes. When we started, we suggested that it be done gradually. That way, we could see what we were doing right and what we were doing wrong. It would allow us to get as close to perfection as possible.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Is the gradual increase for virtual sittings?

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

These are virtual sittings or hybrid sittings, meaning that some members are in the House while others participate in the debates by teleconference. This is something that the committee must decide before making its recommendations to the House. Ultimately, the House will decide what we'll do.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Given that you participated in the last Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic, do you have a positive view of being able to hold oral question period and debate bills with the following ratios: 20 minutes for questions and 10 minutes for answers and comments, or 10 minutes for questions and five minutes for answers and comments.

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

Given the way things have been going so far, I'm sure it's possible. However, we have restrictions based on the laws and regulations that govern the House. We have to respect both, and perhaps interpret them a little more freely. They have to be interpreted in a way that works, without changing their original intent.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Speaking of changes to the procedure, I would like to know if you've already started thinking about some situations that might arise. For example, in the House, it's quite rare for a member to suddenly disappear, while it can happen if the member is having problems connecting.

Are you considering alternatives that would address this type of procedural situation?

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

It's certainly something we've discussed, but we haven't yet found a solution. When someone is speaking and disappears suddenly, that's a problem.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ruby Sahota]

I think we have an interpretation issue.

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

What's happening?