Evidence of meeting #122 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was colleagues.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Nathalie Drouin  Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council and National Security and Intelligence Advisor to the Prime Minister, Privy Council Office
Caroline Xavier  Chief, Communications Security Establishment

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

Colleagues, good morning.

I am pleased to be here with you.

We are here today for meeting number 122 of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

Today we are joined by Minister LeBlanc, as well as Ms. Drouin, to begin our study on documents requested by the commissioner of the Public Inquiry into Foreign Interference in Federal Electoral Processes and Democratic Institutions.

Colleagues, we will begin as we normally do, with just a reminder that the official headsets have been provided for the health, safety and well-being of our interpreters. Please make sure that you place them on the stickers to the right or left of you when not in use.

We are joined today, as I mentioned, by the Honourable Dominic LeBlanc, the Minister of Public Safety, Democratic Institutions and Intergovernmental Affairs. As well, from the Privy Council Office, we have Ms. Nathalie Drouin, the deputy clerk of the Privy Council and national security and intelligence adviser to the Prime Minister.

Mr. LeBlanc, we will turn the floor over to you, sir. You have up to 10 minutes for opening remarks, following which we will go into our line of questioning.

Minister, the floor is yours.

June 20th, 2024 / 11:05 a.m.

Beauséjour New Brunswick

Liberal

Dominic LeBlanc LiberalMinister of Public Safety

Chair and colleagues, thank you for inviting me and my colleague, Ms. Drouin, to speak to you about the important work of the Hogue commission.

Mr. Chair, I give a particular thank you to you. I had a real moment of panic yesterday that you might cancel this meeting this morning. Nathalie and I would have been devastated had you chosen to do so. We really appreciate the efforts you made, Mr. Chair and colleagues, to not go home after five weeks of sitting but to stay here to have this opportunity. It means the world to Nathalie and me, and I just wanted all of you to know that. Thank you.

Mr. Chair, the government recently introduced Bill C‑65, which will strengthen the Canada Elections Act, and Bill C‑70. I actually just spoke with our colleagues about the importance of this bill, and I thank the House of Commons and our colleagues in the Senate for passing it. Bill C‑70, as you well know, will strengthen the ability of the government and our intelligence and security services to detect and disrupt foreign interference threats, as well as protect Canadians.

As these measures show, the government is constantly improving safeguards to protect Canada's democracy and democratic institutions. It is also with this in mind that the government has taken significant steps to support the Commission on Foreign Interference, chaired by the Honourable Marie‑Josée Hogue. This is a testament to the seriousness of our commitment to combatting foreign interference.

Last year, I worked with my colleagues from all recognized parties in the House of Commons to develop the mandate of the Commission on Foreign Interference. At that time, Ms. Drouin was the deputy clerk. She also worked with me when she was deputy minister of justice, as you also know very well. We were able to benefit from her advice and support as a senior official at the Privy Council Office. It has helped us a great deal, as well as our colleagues, the House leaders of the other political parties. I want to acknowledge her role in this process last summer.

We also worked together to secure the appointment of Ms. Hogue as commissioner. I'm proud of the work we've done together on a non-partisan basis.

What we agreed to in the terms of reference that set up the Hogue commission was that a special exemption would be made to release certain cabinet confidences, specifically the same set of documents that was provided to the independent special rapporteur on foreign interference. These cabinet documents were provided early on to the commission as part of its initial phase of work. These documents, of course, were also shared with the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians, as well as the National Security and Intelligence Review Agency.

In addition to those documents outlined in the terms of reference specifically, the Government of Canada has provided over 46,000 documents to the commission and is processing thousands more documents as we speak. The majority of these documents, as you can imagine, are highly classified; to be clear, they are some of the most sensitive and top secret documents in the Government of Canada's possession.

The Government of Canada committed to ensuring the commission has access to all the material it requires to fulfill its mandate, and we continue to work with the commission collaboratively to this effect. Between the tens of thousands of documents and the dozens of government witnesses who have appeared before the commission, both in private, in camera hearings and in public sessions, I am confident that this remains the case.

I look forward to the commission's final report and recommendations. That report, as you know, will be tabled before December 31, 2024. I want to note that Commissioner Hogue has agreed to review the allegations regarding the parliamentarians named in the recent report of the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians.

I am confident that the commissioner's report will help strengthen Canada's democracy, democratic institutions and electoral processes. As you know very well, the recommendations—I hope—will also provide food for thought for our colleagues in the provinces, territories and, possibly, municipalities.

The Government of Canada, Mr. Chair, will continue to support the important work of Justice Hogue and her team. They are beginning a series of interviews with senior government witnesses. I'll have the privilege of being back in Ottawa in the coming weeks to meet with the lawyers of the Hogue commission. Their work is very much on track and continuing. We'll continue, as I said, in a collaborative way.

Madame Drouin spoke to me a few minutes ago about the ongoing dialogue that exists between senior officials of the Privy Council Office, who would be responsible for the management of cabinet documents and such. There is an ongoing active conversation between the commission, the commission's lawyers and the Privy Council Office. This work will continue. We very much believe it will result in the commission having exactly the information it needs to do this work.

I look forward to the discussion, Mr. Chair, and the questions from colleagues.

Once again, let me thank you profoundly for scheduling this morning's meeting. It means the world to me and Madame Drouin that we're able to be here with you.

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

Minister, it's my pleasure to have you here. Thank you for making the time in your schedule.

Mr. Cooper, the floor will be yours for six minutes, sir.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister LeBlanc, The Globe and Mail reported on May 23 that the Prime Minister and the cabinet are withholding “an undisclosed number” of documents from Madam Justice Hogue, the commissioner of the inquiry on foreign interference. The Prime Minister's department, the PCO, has confirmed that of the documents turned over to her, nearly 10% have been redacted. I underscore that the documents being withheld are documents that Madam Justice Hogue has requested in order to fulfill her mandate.

What is the Prime Minister hiding from Madam Justice Hogue?

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

The Prime Minister and the government are hiding nothing from the Hogue commission. The redactions you referred to....

Again, if colleagues want technical explanations, I'm sure Madame Drouin can provide them.

My understanding is that those redactions relate to solicitor-client privilege or cabinet confidence. That is a fundamental principle of our Westminster parliamentary system. In no way is the government working at counter purposes to the commission.

As I said, there is an active, ongoing conversation on exactly those documents that Mr. Cooper referred to.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Minister, with respect to that active, ongoing conversation, the reason there's a conversation is that the government is obstructing the work of Madame Justice Hogue. The government is not turning over documents that she sees as relevant to fulfilling her mandate.

I would note that this committee received a letter from the counsel to the commissioner, which indicated that with regard to the turning over of the documents Madam Justice Hogue has requested, “the interest of the Commission and the interest of the Committee would appear to align”.

Again, I repeat, what is the Prime Minister hiding?

I'll further ask if you would provide assurances that at the end of these discussions, Madam Justice Hogue will receive every document she has requested on an unredacted basis.

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Mr. Chair, our colleague repeated his question. I'll repeat the answer. The government and the Prime Minister are, obviously, hiding absolutely nothing. We happily set up the commission with the work and the support of the recognized political parties. Mr. Cooper's House leader—Andrew Scheer, who's a friend of mine—and I worked....

In fact, the terms of reference that were accepted by every party represented at this table contemplated the release of the cabinet documents the commission has, and also contemplated the protection of cabinet confidence and solicitor-client privilege, so none of this is a surprise.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Minister, I would submit that it is unacceptable for the Prime Minister to pick and choose which documents Madam Justice Hogue can see. Part of Madam Justice Hogue's mandate is to examine decisions made by the Prime Minister and the cabinet with respect to foreign interference, and what the Prime Minister did or failed to do. In that regard, I would submit that the Prime Minister is in a conflict.

Again, if he has nothing to hide, then he should turn over the documents.

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Again, our colleague repeats the same question for his—

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

I pointed out a clear conflict, a clear conflict on the part of the Prime Minister, insofar as a major part of the mandate of Madam Justice Hogue is to examine what the Prime Minister did or failed to do.

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

It won't surprise you that characterizing that as a clear conflict is not a submission that I would respect.

I think it's interesting that there have been 44 federal commissions of inquiry since 1977, and only five of them have had access to cabinet confidence. Four of them were under Liberal governments actually headed by prime ministers called Trudeau, and the fifth one involved a decision—

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Minister, since you're now deviating.... Minister, I'll remind you—

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Mr. Chair, I was answering the question—

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

Mr. Cooper, I'm going to stop the clock so as to allow you an opportunity to have one more question. However, we have invited the minister here to answer questions, and I'm going to provide him the opportunity to finish.

I'd ask that you let him finish that answer with respect to your question, and then I'll start the clock again. However, let's let him finish the answer.

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Mr. Chair, thank you.

As I said, four commissions were under Liberal governments where the prime minister was called Trudeau. The fifth one.... Of 44, these are the five that have had access to cabinet confidence. That tells you that it's a very unusual process. The fifth was a decision made by the late Brian Mulroney with respect to cabinet confidence in the Oliphant inquiry.

Again, Mr. Chair, what's important is that the opposition parties agreed to those terms of reference, and of course, now they're manufacturing a lot of indignation with respect to this issue.

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Cooper, just so I'm clear: I'm going to restart the clock now, okay? Go ahead, sir.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

In fact, the Prime Minister isn't just hiding documents from Madam Justice Hogue. The annual report of NSICOP, released on June 5, states that the Prime Minister and the government “withheld...over a thousand documents” from NSICOP and that they are “inappropriately using claims of Cabinet confidences to avoid disclosing information”.

Isn't that exactly what is happening here? I will repeat it, and it's a very simple yes-or-no question: Will the Prime Minister turn over every document that Madam Justice Hogue has requested, whenever these discussions come to an end?

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Mr. Chair, our colleague—

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Yes or no?

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Mr. Chair, our colleague raised NSICOP and the National Security and Intelligence Review Agency. It's Parliament itself, in the legislation, that protected cabinet confidence when those bodies were created. Neither of the acts that created those bodies created exceptions in terms of access to cabinet confidence. Exceptionally, the Prime Minister has authorized the disclosure of cabinet documents—

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Yes or no?

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

—to those bodies, so, Mr. Chair, I can tell our colleague that, at the end of the process that is ongoing and collaborative.... I hope that somebody will ask Madame Drouin, who has insight into those ongoing conversations with the commission. It would be inappropriate for me, and it's not politicians who decide what documents—

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

The answer appears to be “no”, since the minister has refused, I think at least three times, to answer that question. It's clear that the Prime Minister is conveniently withholding documents from Madam Justice Hogue because he does not want her to be able to fully scrutinize his failures to protect our sovereignty and democracy from Beijing's interference.

The Chair Liberal Ben Carr

Thank you, Mr. Cooper.

Thank you, Minister.

Dominic LeBlanc Liberal Beauséjour, NB

Just because Mr. Cooper keeps ascertaining the same thing does not make it true.