Procedure and House Affairs Committee on June 21st, 2022

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

On that front, in terms of the resources that you and Mr. McDonell would need to make sure that you could protect Canadians in general and parliamentarians in particular, and their staff, would you be seeking only human resources, or does security go beyond that? Would it include infrastructure, human resources, and other matters that I maybe can't imagine right now that would be necessary for you to do your job well?

[Larry Brookson]

Through you, Madam Chair, to Mr. Fergus, yes. I've indicated previously and in my opening remarks that the solution to this is not hardening strategy. It is important in providing a security fabric over the precinct, but that alone is not going to get us to where we need to be. The same can be said for just throwing human and security assets at it. That's not going to get us to where we need to be.

In order for us to be effective, and for me to get somewhat more comfortable about where the precinct is, we need the inclusion of effective barriers and technology to ensure that situational awareness.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you.

I'm sorry to have taken up so much time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Ms. Gaudreau, you have the floor for two and a half minutes

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

We were just talking about efficiency. Let's imagine that we don't have to worry about human resources, which are a scarce commodity, and that we have a sufficient perimeter to ensure security. How far can we go in terms of the needs that parliamentarians may have? This is a subject we have already discussed. A lot of people have second homes that are a few kilometres away, obviously.

First of all, I talked earlier about what could be done, as a preventive measure, regarding possible reports. It's not necessarily about an armed person on Wellington Street. There may be people announcing their arrival, correct, Madam Chair?

I'd like to know what you're missing and what additional expertise you would need to fill those gaps.

[Larry Brookson]

Through you, Madam Chair, this is where it's critically important that the service has the partners that it has. We talk about being an intelligence-led organization in order to serve the parliamentary community, and that's not going to change moving forward. The advance notice we receive through intelligence and information that we receive gives us ample time to assess and analyze. The service will spare no expense in responding effectively to ensure the safety of parliamentarian staffers and members of the public while they're on the precinct.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Given what we are seeing, whether in the U.S. Congress or elsewhere, and the serious situation we could have experienced last weekend, I would like to know if you have everything you need to be able to respond.

We are here to try to do what we need to do to avoid situations where we learn from our mistakes, or new situations. In fact, situations are always new.

[Larry Brookson]

Through you, Madam Chair, I'm extremely comfortable and pleased with the discussions that are currently under way with the parliamentary community on finding some other.... It can't be dealt with from a single lane. This is a multi-faceted approach to increasing the security of the precinct and parliamentarians.

I'm extremely comfortable. I'm very well supported by both Speakers and by my counterparts at both corporate security directorates. Those discussions have already been initiated, and I'm quite pleased with the progress to date and where they are going.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Ms. Gaudreau.

Madam Blaney.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Madam Chair, as always, through you, I would like to ask one question of both witnesses. I'll leave them to decide who is best to answer it.

We've increasingly seen articles about a summer convoy visit, which is concerning, of course. We have some pretty important days, like Canada Day, coming up.

I'm wondering if we are prepared for that. Are there any major concerns? What lessons were learned from the previous convoy that prepare this place for the summer one?

[Larry Brookson]

Through you, Madam Chair, as the teams make preparations.... I've received two briefings. There will be a briefing tomorrow afternoon for the parliamentary community, to bring them through our preparations for securing the precinct for July 1.

I apologize. I'm not going to get into the details of the specifics of the security concerns, if there are any, for the July 1 festivities. However, I can tell you that I'm extremely comfortable with just the fact that Wellington is shut down. We'll make the necessary efforts to make sure it is completely sealed off for those festivities.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

This is my last question, since I have time for another one.

We heard in Chief Jocko's testimony that there was very serious concern, from her perspective, about how the convoy was treated—in terms of their behaviour, their outright plans to overtake the government, and all the things they said—compared to how indigenous folks have been treated when they are protesting and doing things that are, of course, in no way as disruptive as the convoy.

I asked a question earlier about what the plan is. Could you please inform us what the process is to make sure we're working with indigenous people respectfully? Who is part of that consultation? Who is part of gathering the information? How does that relationship work, and is it ongoing or a one-time thing?

[Larry Brookson]

Through you, Madam Chair, I think it's important to note what today is. It is National Indigenous Peoples Day.

Again, I go back to our plenary unit, which does an amazing level of outreach. Ms. Blaney, I can assure you that when our indigenous family members are coming to the precinct to protest or have access, we get out front to make sure it's facilitated and as easy as possible, so there are no barriers.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

What is the complaint process? Is there a specific complaint process for indigenous people who feel they are treated differently and want to come forward? We're hearing it again and again, but I'm hearing responses about how this is not the case. That difference in opinion concerns me.

[Larry Brookson]

Through you, Madam Chair, if there are complaints from anybody—indigenous family members or others—it's critically important that those complaints come to the office of the director of the service, so they can be dealt with as swiftly as possible.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Mrs. Block, followed by Mr. Gerretsen.

Go ahead, Mrs. Block.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I want to thank our witnesses for joining us today.

I will say, at the front end of my comments, that, having been a member of Parliament for almost 14 years, I have always appreciated the work the PPS does in the precinct, the very respectful support they provide to members of Parliament, and the work of our Sergeant-at-Arms.

I want to start with my experience during the convoy, as other members of Parliament have. I walked from the Hill or my office to my apartment, which is downtown, every day and did not experience what others have stated they did, although I did not engage with the protesters on a daily basis. I did not have arguments with them. Perhaps that is why my experience was somewhat different.

I also recall we were encouraged to call PPS when we were coming from our office to the Hill. I believe I did that for the first or second day. After I realized that my trip between my office and the Hill was going to be unfettered and that I had no reason to be afraid, I no longer called the PPS to advise them I was heading to the Hill.

Mr. Brookson, in Chief Sloly's testimony earlier in this study, he used the word “unforeseen”. You yourself stated here today that the numbers that started showing up on the Friday made it clear this was going to go longer than the weekend.

I want to confirm what I heard in response to Ms. Gaudreau's comments: If you were alerted on January 11, and the Ottawa Police Service was alerted on January 13, that this convoy was coming, and if you were able to watch on television—as I and probably many Canadians did—as the convoy proceeded to Ottawa and crowds gathered to encourage them, why did it take almost two weeks for you to sit down with other law enforcement agencies and develop a plan?

[Larry Brookson]

Through you, Madam Chair, again, the occupation outside of the precinct was the responsibility of the POJ lead. In fairness to Mr. Sloly's testimony, it's important to note that the sheer number of vehicles that were en route to Ottawa provided a small snippet of what the future was to hold with their arrival.

I don't think anybody was able to forecast that it would go into a full month, or some of the occurrences that happened during that period. Again, I need to remind you that I'm not a policing service.

When those operational plans were being worked up, yes, I always needed to know what the context was for the service, but it was in the realm of the policing organizations to come up with the operational plan to effectively deal with the individuals who were on Wellington Street and on the outskirts.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you very much.

Again, Mr. Brookson, in response to a question earlier today, when my colleague asked if an expanded physical jurisdiction for the PPS with the same legal mandate would be a feasible undertaking, you responded, “Yes.”

In his testimony, former chief Sloly made the comment that it was one thing to be able to redraw boundaries but quite another to work out the jurisdictional issues that would come with that. You yourself have testified that you have no mandate for Criminal Code investigations and that you are not a policing organization.

If the precinct is to extend well beyond Wellington, and we have to weigh the value of having effective barriers, sensing technologies and the other things you said you believed were needed, and balance that with an open and free environment, what kinds of human resources is it going to take to ensure that the kind of protection we have on the Hill will be at the same level when we are walking on Slater, Queen or Albert?

Thank you.

[Larry Brookson]

Through you, Madam Chair, again, there will always be an element of an MP being off the precinct, so the facilitation of where the precinct is being proposed to be.... As I indicated earlier, the assessment and analysis haven't been completed as to what investment is going to be required into this service to ensure that. I would expect that to be coming following whatever decisions are being taken.

It's also important, though, to note that we can't just speak about one element. Again, the question specific to increasing human resourcing is something that will most likely be necessary, but there's also the requirement of the effective barriers and technology.... I need to have an increased situational awareness of what the precinct has underneath it.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you very much for that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Did you have any closing comments? Do you have a quick question, or are you okay?

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Is my time up?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I've been lenient with others, so I don't mind giving you one more if you want it.