Procedure and House Affairs Committee on June 21st, 2022

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Without a specific number, would you say that MPs and their staff had daily ongoing concerns throughout that occupation?

[Larry Brookson]

Through you, Madam Chair, it's my role to have those concerns for members of Parliament. I can tell you how concerned I was throughout that period. I was extremely concerned. It's the responsibility of my role and of the service to take on those concerns and make sure the necessary pieces are in place to ensure as much protection as we can.

I'll defer, Madam Chair, to Mr. McDonell to add to that.

[Patrick McDonell]

Thank you.

Mr. Turnbull, on a daily basis we had communication with staff and MPs who felt harassed coming through the crowds. Some had a lot of anxiety coming through the crowds. Some had their cars banged on and blocked when they were coming in through the Lyon-Wellington Street entrance into the parking lot. It was a daily thing at Lyon and Wellington.

One individual would block certain employees' cars every day. If it was a female employee, he would bang on their car before moving aside. We had one instance when, just before coming up the steps off Wellington, a female employee was accosted by a gentleman who tried to throw a bag of what appeared to be human feces on her. A male employee came to her rescue and pushed the assailant to the ground, and they left.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you for that.

Before we proceed to Madame Gaudreau, I will remind you—and I think Mr. Brookson put it really fittingly at the end of his comments, that he will try to share as much information as possible—that when it comes to security matters, often they are not taking place in this kind of forum, so we just need to be mindful of what witnesses can provide, and what we might be aware of versus what we can share.

Ms. Gaudreau, you have the floor.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I thank our esteemed witnesses for being here.

On January 13, the former chief of police was officially warned of what was coming. You said earlier that you were warned around noon. Was it January 13 or later?

[Patrick McDonell]

Are you asking me if it was on January 13 that we were informed that the convoy was coming?

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

The former Ottawa police chief was officially briefed on the arrival of the convoy on Thursday, January 13. I wanted to know when you got the news.

[Patrick McDonell]

I knew about it on January 11.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I see.

When did the first gathering of the six command centre services take place? You were part of it, correct?

[Larry Brookson]

I'll respond through you, Madam Chair.

It was during the week prior to the convoy's arrival in Ottawa that we began to have discussions with our policing partners, including the Ottawa Police Service and the RCMP.

We started a few weeks prior in our preparation, but in the collaboration, we had a sense, even within the service, that this was going to be much bigger than us.

The knowledge of that many vehicles heading to Ottawa was extremely concerning to the service. The service really understands the importance of this precinct and the business that gets conducted here. Those conversations on trying to increase that sensitivity and awareness began almost right away.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

As I understand it, communication was unfortunately lacking in an emergency situation. In addition, there is an isolation aspect which is unacceptable for our valuable witnesses, who are doing prevention and intervention.

We are also here to determine whether you would have more freedom to provide upstream services if the parliamentary precinct were expanded.

We were told that the police department knew about this on January 13, when on January 11, you were already aware of what was going to happen. Since there is a limit, and when you go beyond that limit, you cannot communicate or exercise certain powers, I find it difficult to tell my fellow citizens and my children that we are well protected.

We have offices on Sparks Street and there are administrative offices on Queen Street. Could the expansion of the parliamentary precinct help with prevention and security for parliamentarians?

[Larry Brookson]

Through you, Madam Chair, the quick response is yes. It's hard to imagine somebody being responsible for a protective mandate when the largest artery that runs through their precinct is outside their control. They're left with the powers of attempting to influence others to make decisions that they're responsible for.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Mr. Brookson, what do you plan to do with the little power you have left at this time in terms of service delivery, considering what might happen on July 1?

You have learned many lessons. What can you say in public? Are you going to call on the other five or six services to say this is unacceptable and it can't happen again?

[Larry Brookson]

Through you, Madam Chair, I think there have been lessons learned by everybody on what we had to go through last winter. I can tell you that I feel much more comfortable as to where the Ottawa Police Service is currently in its preparations for Canada Day. I'm very comfortable as to where the RCMP is. I'm very comfortable as to where the service is.

Right now, with respect to July 1, even with the fact that Wellington remains closed, at least I had significant influence with the City of Ottawa to make sure that it's tight. Certain barriers that have been there have not met my standards of protecting the triad. I'm concerned about sidewalks. I'm concerned about even a truck finding its way through. It's not acceptable. That's part of our operational plan, and it will be sealed extremely tightly.

Those are our preparations for July 1, but we understand that things change. Unfortunately, we're still a way out from July 1, and things can change, depending on the information we receive.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

However, I have a concern, Madam Chair.

In the last few testimonies, we were told about the events of 2014. I was not present in 2014, but lessons were learned during the last events. I would like to point out that I was indeed escorted at one point, as I did not feel safe, and I received excellent service.

That said, we were told that people could not know what they did not know, and could not predict what was coming. Who will be able to act, if not the police services? The protection service that we have access to in the parliamentary precinct already has its own responsibilities, and communications do not converge towards the same goal, because everyone respects their jurisdiction.

I dare to hope that what we are doing today will break down certain barriers, because, in the end, we are talking about human lives, the safety of people and elected officials. This is my cry from the heart today, because I would not want this to prevent people from entering politics in the coming years.

I would like to raise another point, Madam Chair.

I am very concerned about what is happening in social media. There is a lot of prevention that needs to be done, and I think the security services should be doing more than reporting, because we don't see all the thousands of messages that go through. You might agree with me that this is one more thing to consider in terms of what we've experienced in the last few months.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you very much for these comments and this discussion.

Would you like to reply?

[Larry Brookson]

Through you, Madam Chair, just quickly, I absolutely appreciate the comments. I'll just say that the relationship between the service and the Ottawa Police Service is extremely strong. The challenge I have is that once a member of Parliament steps off the sidewalk onto Wellington, I have no authority. In the past year or so my direction has been that it's irrelevant if we don't have authority—I'll deal with that after the fact—but we are to engage if any of our MPs find themselves in distress. What I'm asking for is to remove that barrier of risking the service outward. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Ms. Blaney, over to you.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

As always, through you, I want to thank both of the witnesses for being here today, and I respect how difficult it is to testify publicly on things that are so important to us. I appreciate all of your hard work on this.

If I could come to you first, Mr. Brookson, you talked earlier in one of your answers about the technical gap for knowing what was in the vehicles on Wellington. That was a gap; is it still a gap? If it isn't, where are we in the process of addressing that?

[Larry Brookson]

Through you, Madam Chair, I can tell you that work is already under way in collaboration with the parliamentary community, which has completely recognized the importance of looking beyond just the human assets to protect our parliamentarians. There need to be effective barriers and there also need to be sensing technologies, so that I get as much advance notice of when that threat is coming as possible.

Usually these threats that I'm most concerned about are threats that are coming in which the item of choice is not exposed—it's not out in the open. That work is ongoing, and I'm very happy with the progress that's happening there. Obviously it's not a small undertaking when we talk about something like that, so there will be more to come, I think, in the coming months to see about closing that gap.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

In testimony that I heard from the former chief of police here in Ottawa, one of the things that concerned me greatly as a member who walked through it every day was the fact that the whole street in front of Wellington was completely blocked. I asked why there was no attempt to block that street prior to the convoy's arriving. It seemed to me that the former chief of police felt that he did not have the information he needed to make that decision.

I'm just wondering if I could get any feedback on whether there was anything known here, and whether any communication happened between the two different facets of this.

[Larry Brookson]

Through you, Madam Chair, this really speaks to the difference of sensitivity to what my environment is. To me, it's not just about security risks, it's about a potential disruption to democracy in this country. Again, my threshold is much lower as to what I would react to than some of our.... I can't speak on behalf of the Ottawa Police Service or to what it knew and what decisions it took at that time.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

During the “freedom convoy”, what were the major areas of concern around security, and how would expanding the precinct help or hinder you in being able to do the work?

[Larry Brookson]

I would have full control of the precinct, which I don't have right now. However, I'm equally concerned about the Senate of Canada building, so that needs to be looked as well. I know the precinct was expanded a couple of years ago to include the sidewalk. From a security perspective the sidewalk doesn't give me much.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

What would largely change if the precinct expanded? It was interesting, again, as a member walking through it. I had a lot of arguments as I walked to work every day, which was not necessarily the best way to experience that, but I also saw a lot of people struggling. What I noted many times were people with mobility issues really having challenges getting through and trying to get places.

If we change this, if the precinct expands, how are we going to make sure that people are able to move through it comfortably? The other thing I'll add to it is that there's a lot of discussion about having a pedestrian mall or access to people being able to sell things right in front of the House and having maybe a tram go through. Are any of these being looked at and are there any security concerns that we should be considering in terms of our recommendations to the House?