Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 1st, 2023

[Jody Thomas]

I can't say that would be an illegal activity. I would have to have more information, and certainly I'm not the arbiter of what's illegal.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Sure. That's okay.

I feel very strongly that this would constitute an illegal activity if it were true. If so—if there were evidence to suggest that it was true and intelligence and CSIS became aware of that illegal activity, then it should obviously.... Obviously, as per our previous lines of questioning, it would have to turn that information over to appropriate authorities. Is that not true?

[Jody Thomas]

In a simple world, the answer is yes. However, one single piece of intelligence, depending on how credible the intelligence is, multiple source reporting.... There's a lot that goes into the translation of intelligence into evidence. It is a critical problem.

Often, the information that CSIS obtains can't be used for a criminal investigation because it is not evidence. Often, to proceed from intelligence to evidence means it would reveal sources or tradecraft that would be problematic in other decisions that are made in terms of how that information will be dealt with.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Ms. Normandin. You have two and a half minutes.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to follow up on the allegation that a Liberal candidate received assistance from Chinese authorities.

Would that ever be considered interference, yes or no?

[Jody Thomas]

I think certainly it would be, if it were covert.... As an example, diplomats around the world have lists of politicians who are friendly to Canada. We do the same thing.

When it becomes covert, not overt, not diplomacy but behind-the-scenes machinations and perhaps malevolent, yes—

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

You answered my question when you said it was covert, so I'm going to stop you there.

Are donations by intermediaries ever considered interference?

[Jody Thomas]

Again, if it is not in keeping with the Canadian law, yes.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

That means the incidents in the media reports could indeed be considered interference.

Before the story broke, was the possibility of disclosing that information to the public ever discussed?

[Jody Thomas]

Again, that intelligence would likely not be made public, for the reasons I have cited previously, but the discussion about foreign interference and the attempts at foreign interference to affect the election have been discussed publicly.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

We know that the Chinese Communist Party puts significant pressure on members of the Chinese diaspora in order to obtain certain results.

If information on foreign interference isn't made public, how can we make sure the Chinese diaspora in Canada is protected against threats such as their visas being revoked?

[Shawn Tupper]

It's a super important question.

The ability to build a trusting relationship with diaspora communities in the country, between those communities and government institutions, is critical to our work. To that end, we engage directly with those communities. I have an advisory board to me directly that helps me understand how we can better work with those communities.

The most perfect example of what you're asking us about is the recent questions around Chinese police stations in the country, where we were able to engage with communities. We were able to do public appeals, to post information and post police officers outside of those venues and engage with Chinese diplomats in the country. That has effectively stopped the activities of those five police stations, so it is working through the community, working in a public way as best we can, that allows us to resist and to push back against those kinds of foreign interference.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Mr. Julian, you have two and a half minutes, please.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I have two questions.

First, if I understood correctly, alleged violations of the Canada Elections Act that constitute criminal offences are automatically investigated. Is that the case, or do the agencies work together to look into the matter before referring it for investigation?

In terms of my second question, I touched just briefly on the impact of Russian state actors. We saw their impact in the 2016 election of Donald Trump, in the Brexit referendum and in the massive subsidies going to the United Kingdom Conservative Party.

There was the scandal that erupted when the report was issued after the Conservatives were re-elected, and of course concerns have been raised about the connection between Russian state actors and the convoy groups here in Canada. It was reported by the National Observer and others that a lot of the public Telegram channels were repurposed to support the “freedom convoy”.

To what extent is there an ongoing evaluation of Russian dirty tricks when it comes to our democratic system? Have you seen any impacts of this during our election campaign?

[Cindy Termorshuizen, Associate Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

I can answer one aspect of that, and that relates to the RRM, the rapid response mechanism, which was established in 2018 by Canada in the context of the G7 to ensure that we were monitoring disinformation and other online threats to our democracy. We've certainly been looking at Russian efforts at disinformation, as well as at the Chinese and other actors. This is something we monitor on an ongoing basis in both English and French media, but also in foreign language media, because you're absolutely right that this is something we need to monitor very carefully given its impact on our democracy.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

I'm going to repeat my first question. When you receive information that the Canada Elections Act may have been violated, is the matter automatically referred for investigation?

[Shawn Tupper]

Is it automatic? The community works together. The RCMP are part of the team that looks at this information. They do, in that sense, have ready and automatic access to that information. Obviously the use of that information under the Elections Act or under the criminal law has to be considered by the two agencies. Both have their own respective lanes in which they need to act. Certainly that information is made readily available to the agencies that would need it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

We'll finish this round with three and a half to four minutes for Mr. Calkins, and then we will go to three and a half to four minutes for Ms. Sahota.

Mr. Calkins.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair. My question will be for Ms. Thomas.

Would the Prime Minister or the Prime Minister's immediate aides ever be briefed on foreign interference without the presence of the national security intelligence adviser?

[Jody Thomas]

I can't speak to what protocols existed before I became the national security adviser. They are not briefed by CSIS or an outside agency on foreign interference without my being present, or they haven't been, to my knowledge, unless I happened to be out of town, but then there would be an official there for me.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

If, during an election campaign, a political entity lodged a complaint or provided intelligence that foreign interference was happening in a particular riding, would that information be shared with the Prime Minister?

[Jody Thomas]

It would not.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Where would that information go?