Procedure and House Affairs Committee on April 18th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 63 of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. The committee is meeting today to continue its study on foreign election interference.

Before we begin, I'll remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair. The clerk and I will maintain a consolidated speaking list of members wishing to speak.

We have with us this evening, Mr. Michael Wernick, chair in public sector management at the University of Ottawa.

Mr. Wernick, first of all, it's really good to see you again. It's been a while, so thank you for taking the time. Thank you for responding to our request to so quickly. It really means a lot to us.

I'm going to pass the floor to you for opening comments.

[Michael Wernick, Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

It's a privilege to be back here on the Hill after years of Zoom calls.

I have no submission. I have no opening statement. I'd be happy to get to your questions right away.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you so much.

I'm going to have to suspend for two minutes for some technical issues.

Please stand by.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

You have my apologies for that. We will proceed.

We will start with the first round of questions, a six-minute round, starting with Mr. Cooper.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Mr. Wernick, thank you for appearing.

In the response that you submitted to the committee, you indicated that you don't ever recall seeing a memo in or around June 2017 entitled “Memorandum to the Prime Minister” respecting, broadly, issues around Beijing's interference in our democracy.

Can you speak to why you don't recall that? Was it because you were receiving a lot of memos and briefings around interference by Beijing at that time?

[Michael Wernick]

Thank you for the question.

I left government four years ago today. I did not take any records or secret documents with me. I don't have access to document logs. I don't have access to my old calendars, and I don't have access to any records. I'm relying on media stories and Google searches.

As I indicated in responding to the clerk, I have no memory of seeing that note that is referred to in a media clipping. If I read it, and I probably did, it was six years ago.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you.

In and around that time, did you have information that Beijing officials were actively pursuing a strategy to infiltrate or interfere in our democratic processes?

[Michael Wernick]

Not that I recall.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

You have no information that agents of the Beijing regime were assisting candidates running for political office in Canada. You don't recall having any discussions around interference by Beijing whatsoever.

[Michael Wernick]

No. At the time, the main preoccupation was Russia. It was a month after the French presidential election. We were very concerned about the disruption of elections, but most of the attention was on Russia at the time.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Did the Prime Minister ever instruct you that there were certain topics that were not to be discussed with him?

[Michael Wernick]

Never.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Would that also apply to officials in the PMO? No one in the PMO ever told you that there were certain topics not to be discussed.

[Michael Wernick]

I didn't take direction from the political staff of the Prime Minister.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Did anyone ever instruct you to do that even if you didn't take direction?

[Michael Wernick]

No, never.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Okay. Thank you.

Are you aware of anyone in the PMO or in the public service ever intentionally withholding any national security information from the Prime Minister?

[Michael Wernick]

No.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Okay.

With respect to the daily intelligence brief prepared by the intelligence assessment secretariat in the PCO, aside from the Prime Minister, who receives that daily intelligence brief?

[Michael Wernick]

I don't know the answer to that.

You probably should ask Mr. Jean when he appears. There was a distribution list within the Privy Council Office and some other departments of people who had the appropriate security clearance.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

In your response, you made reference to the document logging system at PCO and indicated that the committee could ask for extracts as a means to get more information or to track down this particular memo of June 2017.

Do you have any comments with respect to the parameters in which to undertake a search of that logging system? How would you go about that?

[Michael Wernick]

I think you'd have to ask the Privy Council Office that. I'm just aware that notes went from the Privy Council Office to the Prime Minister's Office. They were logged out from us and in from them.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Through you, Madam Chair, we had a fairly straightforward request of the PCO regarding dates on which the Prime Minister was briefed. It took a month for it to be produced. Do you have any comment about how long or what kind of turnaround time we could expect from a request of a search of that system?

[Michael Wernick]

I can't really speak to how they work now. I left four years ago. You would really have to ask the current Privy Council Office.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Who decides what information is assembled into the Prime Minister's daily reading package?