Evidence of meeting #63 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.
A video is available from Parliament.
7:15 p.m.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Thank you to Mr. Wernick for being here.
Mr. Wernick, you spoke at length about preparing for the future, but I think the best way to do that is by relying on the experience and wisdom of those who were there before us.
I have a question for you. I don't want to talk about any particular memos or any specific information, but can you recall when you were informed about the extent of interference by the Chinese communist regime in Canada's democratic system?
7:15 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I remember what it was like then. It was four, five or six years ago that we began to feel China as more of a cyber threat. There were attacks on networks, industrial espionage, and attacks on the National Research Council of Canada. Some Chinese companies had also invested in the Canada's natural resources, a very controversial issue at the time. I believe there were discussions at Canadian universities about partnerships with China. There were also threats in the summer of 2017 or 2018, when a Chinese icebreaker travelled in northern Canada.
7:15 p.m.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
So you had some general information. But can you remember having received anything specifically about the electoral process?
I'm asking because the information disseminated by the media is pretty clear and accurate. Interference is said to have intensified in the years you were there and that it was becoming increasingly worrisome.
At what point did you personally feel it was really a problem and that the Canadian government should do something about Beijing's interference in our elections.
7:15 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
That's one of the reasons I pursued this matter. As a result, there was more investment in the 2018 budget, because we could see that…
7:20 p.m.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
So you helped prepare the memos to try to convince the Prime Minister to invest in that area. You were directly involved in the whole process.
7:20 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
It was more ongoing discussions than memos.
When you're preparing a budget, you have to decide on priorities. In the 2018 budget, we committed major investments for cybersecurity. I recall another priority, which was to get Canadians truly involved. That's why the Canadian Centre for Cyber Security was established.
7:20 p.m.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
So you had several informal discussions, but not an exchange of memoranda with the office of the Prime Minister, on…
7:20 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
That's possible, but…
7:20 p.m.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
That's what you just said, Mr. Wernick.
My understanding then is that there were informal discussions about election interference.
7:20 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
There may well be some memoranda or briefing notes, but I'm not aware of them.
7:20 p.m.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
That's not what I am asking you.
I would ask just what you remember.
I have another question.
Were you involved in developing the Critical Election Incident Public Protocol which was established specifically for elections?
7:20 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Yes, I am one of the architects of that protocol.
7:20 p.m.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
No public announcements were ever made under this protocol.
You were one of the architects of the system. In your view, what precisely should be a triggering factor for the group administering the protocol to warn the public, or a political party, that there has been interference, or significant foreign activity?
7:20 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
We set up a panel of five experts to be able to draw upon the insight of a group rather than assign responsibility to a single person, like a chair, to reduce the likelihood of a poor decision.
Some members of the panel are heads of intelligence agencies. They have the experience and judgment required to interpret the intelligence, determine whether it is sound and to know when certain decisions are required.
The group also includes the clerk and some deputy ministers. I believe the Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs was one of them, but can't remember for sure. These people could also state their point of view when the time comes to determine whether would be a public intervention during an election that would create an electoral issue.
7:20 p.m.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
And yet failing to intervene can also cause an electoral issue in certain circumstances. So it's a fine line. The protocol has never led to a decision to intervene and announce that there was interference.
7:20 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Exactly. That means that the panel exercised its professional judgment and decided not to intervene in the election campaign. You can ask my successors, but they've received reports from intelligence organizations, discussed them, exercised their professional judgment and decided not to intervene.
7:20 p.m.
Conservative
7:20 p.m.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
Who has the final say, Mr. Wernick? Does the panel of experts make a recommendation to the Prime Minister's office, after which the Prime Minister makes the final decision?
7:20 p.m.
Jarislowsky Chair in Public Sector Management, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
No, it's a role performed by the Clerk of the Privy Council, independently of any orders or instructions from the Prime Minister of the day. The clerk is responsible for continuity of government during elections. There's a caretaker convention under which the government continues to operate during an election, and the government transition is administered by the clerk.
So it's a role that is appropriately assigned to the clerk.
April 18th, 2023 / 7:20 p.m.
Liberal
Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair. [Technical difficulties—Editor] some good recommendations that I believe this committee could make and that the government can take from this meeting as well.
I also want to thank the witness for the input that he provided to create the cybersecurity centre. Brampton, the city I'm from, has been able to benefit from some of the funding that was in that budget, as well, by having a cybersecurity training centre, which I think we need more of.
Some of the issues that keep me up at night are these very issues. Having been on this committee for many years now, I know that how we protect our democratic institutions and our democratic process, and how misinformation, disinformation and all of these things are affecting the way we act and react in our country, has really changed and affected things.
I was also very touched by comments that you had made at the justice committee in 2019. You said:
I'm deeply concerned about my country right now, its politics and where it's headed. I worry about foreign interference in the upcoming election, and we're working hard on that. I worry about the rising tide of incitements to violence when people use terms like “treason” and “traitor” in open discourse. Those are the words that lead to assassination. I'm worried that somebody is going to be shot in this country this year during the political campaign.
It's been over four years since you made those comments. Do you feel things have improved, or have they actually gotten worse?
