Evidence of meeting #28 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was funding.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC
Thank you.
I hope we can continue this discussion in the next round of questions.
Conservative
Grant Jackson Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
Thank you, Chair.
Welcome to the witnesses again. Thank you for being here and for sharing your views and expertise with us. We sincerely appreciate it.
I'll just build a bit on what Madame DeBellefeuille was talking about. With respect to you, Mr. Bridgman, you came with two recommendations.
One of them is that you believe these big social media companies—this social media environment—can be regulated.
Then, in responding to a question from Mr. Van Popta, we outlined.... Bill C-18 happened. There was a reaction from Meta. It didn't go very favourably, because now we have this vacuum. Maybe you didn't use the word “vacuum”, but that's basically what it's become. They didn't play ball at all with the government's attempt, yet you recommend that they participate if there were regulation brought in, in some type or form.
What evidence could you present to this committee that big corporations like Meta...? The Canadian market is very small relative to their presence globally. What evidence do you have that they would, in fact, participate in any regulation the Government of Canada might bring in?
Assistant Professor, McGill University, and Director, Media Ecosystem Observatory, As an Individual
This is always the question with any large corporation. “If we try to regulate, will they co-operate?”
We have evidence that Google did co-operate in that instance. Meta chose not to. I've talked about the loophole. I've talked about the timidity with which we approached this and our acceptance of their framing of the issue around the link tax and other things. Canada, globally, is a small player. Likely, in the Meta case, what was going on there—and what continues to go on—is that it wasn't about the Canadian market or the Canadian dollar. It was about the global context. It was about the extent to which they were afraid this was going to happen in California, New York and around the world. They were trying to draw a line in the sand. Nevertheless, Facebook usage is enormously high in Canada. There are ads. They make enormous amounts of money in the Canadian context and have a responsibility.
I do not think it is okay for us to say, “They're big, therefore we can't regulate them.” How has that served us in terms of the social platforms? Do we look at society today vis-à-vis 20 years ago and say that we are clearly more democratically enabled, more resilient and more capable now? I don't think we are. There are networks. There is the ability of citizens to talk to one another. There are enormous advantages to that, but I think we can do better.
Conservative
Grant Jackson Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
Thank you.
I've heard from different people who feel they are more connected than ever now and freer to have these discussions, as opposed to before Meta, when there was a phone call, mail in the traditional sense, email or those types of conversations.
I'm not advocating that we shouldn't try because they're big. I'm just curious about whether you have examples of other countries that regulated it, and where Meta did not take a decision like the one they took with Bill C-18 but actually went along with what the government was trying to impose.
Assistant Professor, McGill University, and Director, Media Ecosystem Observatory, As an Individual
Australia is the obvious example. There have been a variety of bargaining codes, where there has been a requirement to bargain with news outlets. That's a model around the world, and it was attempted in the Canadian context as well.
Often, when I come and do these appearances and talk, I come across as techno-pessimistic. There is not going....
I agree that local Facebook groups and community groups are great. I'm in my local town's. They allow connection. Why can't we have both? Why can't we have the news on Meta and the ability to have these connections? There is a way to do that.
I think the fear of when this occurred, when Meta pulled out, and the geopolitical context have changed, and this should be revisited.
Conservative
Grant Jackson Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
Your second recommendation was about digital resilience infrastructure. One of your colleagues on the panel mentioned libraries and this type of thing, but I wonder if you have specific examples of what digital resilience infrastructure would look like that you would recommend.
Assistant Professor, McGill University, and Director, Media Ecosystem Observatory, As an Individual
There was the digital citizen initiative, and there were a variety of programs that often were on a short-term horizon. There were a lot of great programs.
The reporting's there. There's been a really vibrant experimental space. Looking at those programs really seriously and the ones that worked is a really great place to start.
Liberal
Liberal
Jonathan Wilkinson Liberal North Vancouver—Capilano, BC
I would also like to thank the witnesses for their participation.
Maybe I can start with Mr. Gunn. It's a three-part question.
You've obviously worked a lot on civic education through experiential learning, with the rep day program to engage with members of Parliament and the student vote program to bring voting closer to students. At a basic level, can you explain why this kind of positive engagement in democracy is important?
Can you also talk a bit—whether it's your direct experience or observations of other things—about what has typically been most important?
I mentioned the issue of scale in a previous meeting, and student voting is a good example of being able to scale. Outside of the school environment, do you have ideas about how you can scale—how you can do public engagement effectively at scale?
Fellow, National Centre for Critical Infrastructure Protection, Security and Resilience, Carleton University, As an Individual
Your first question, I think, was about why the student vote, rep day and other types of programs are important. Where else do you see stuff like that happening in a young person's life outside of a school? I don't. You may. Some families have great positive reinforcement of democratic participation or service.
I'm going to try to go slowly. I apologize.
Schools remain a sacred space, and educators remain highly committed, dedicated Canadians who want to create citizens before they create employees. There isn't anywhere else for that, so that, to me, is why this is important.
You asked what has been most important. Is that kind of like asking what I have seen that's most effective? Yes, okay.
There's a way of looking at this. You may be looking at new things to do. There has been talk about a democracy fund and things like this. I think what you want to do, before anything else, is identify your assets. What do you have that you can use and strengthen before you worry about creating something new? That would be the first thing.
Again, I'm out of the group, so it doesn't benefit me in any way. If you were worried about something like media literacy or civic education, you could look at a group like Civix, which has 60,000 committed teachers who can turn on a dime in a snap federal election to get a million kids to do something. That's what I'm talking about when you're looking at your assets.
Maybe I'll take that to a scale outside of schools. You probably all know this. Maybe there's a bit of an age difference in the room, and maybe there isn't—I'm 48—but a lot of our civic infrastructure in the past was built by community groups. These community groups were the Lions clubs, the Rotary clubs and other types of things that really don't exist in the same way they did 10 or 20 years ago.
You can go to different academics who will tell you it has been influenced by this...our entertainment, our technology. I wonder if there's a way in which it could be time for a resurgence in that type of public activity, shared activity, face-to-face activity with each other. It could be done in a number of different ways.
I'm privy to some research that isn't out yet, but it involved 2,500 middle school and high school students across the country. It asked them, “If there were a national service program that was meant to help you meet other people and learn some skills—maybe there's a little bit of an honorarium or something like this—would you be interested?”
Twenty-five per cent of the kids said, right off the top, that they'd be interested, and 45% said that they would be interested but that it might be better for somebody else. All they saw was a paragraph, right? What could we do that involves people and gives them constructive outlets where they can learn skills?
That's why I was bringing up these ideas about this infrastructure in terms of what our armed forces are about to try to do. Maybe they could turn more outward facing and be less insular.
What are the other existing assets that we can use for public engagement? I don't know about you, but my kids are learning about their city and getting to know kids outside of their classroom simply because of the sports that they're involved in. There shouldn't be any impediment whatsoever to having families and people playing together. I know this involves the provinces and the municipalities—and some of the municipalities do this so well—but kids should be playing together, and it's not just soccer. My younger guy doesn't want to play soccer, but he could do other things, so we need to look at how we really grow that.
There's another thing, and this goes maybe a bit beyond that, but the best asset we could use to create public engagement is our geography. If you want to know Canada, you just have to get out of wherever you live and get to know this country. I thought the train pass was a great thing, but the flights are ridiculous. The problem is that most people can't take a train for four days. You can't have a 10-day trip across Canada to spend a day in Halifax.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Chris Bittle
I'm going to have to interrupt you. I apologize for that.
It was very interesting, and we will have time to continue.
We'll now go to Madame DeBellefeuille for two and a half minutes, please.
Bloc
Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
We're going to continue our discussion on the digital giants, Mr. Bridgman.
One of the first decisions of the Carney government was to drop the digital services tax on web giants. We would have thought that the money raised could have better supported our local media, our community media and our community television stations that connect communities and deliver local news. Our local media can also be at odds with what is conveyed on social media.
In your opinion, is this a failure? The Carney government revoked the act thinking it would appease the U.S. government, but that didn't happen.
Currently, do you think we should rethink this tax measure to redistribute the money to our local media and strengthen local and regional news?
Assistant Professor, McGill University, and Director, Media Ecosystem Observatory, As an Individual
We absolutely need to strengthen local news. Taxation is one method of doing so.
I also think we need to think about where people are starting to spend their time. A lot of studies have been done showing that Canadians are increasingly turning to influencers to get their information. We have a tendency to say that we don't like it, because influencers are not regulated and they do what they want. I've spoken to a lot of influencers and creators who take responsibility but are a bit overwhelmed by it all. It's a very tough environment. I myself am a full-time researcher who works to better understand what's going on, and I find it hard.
In my opinion, we absolutely have to invest in the production of local news. How we do that, though, is very important. We have to think about how to do it well and properly understand the information ecosystem. We also have to think about who will share local information and how we can equip them.
Bloc
Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC
That's great.
I have a few seconds left to thank you for continuing to spread the good news. We need you, because I don't think we're headed in the right direction. I think we will pay for our timidity later on by the kind of citizens we are developing. I hope your alarms are heard, gentlemen.
Liberal
Conservative
Tamara Kronis Conservative Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.
I want to thank the witnesses for their very insightful comments, but I also really want to compliment the clerk on the way these witnesses were put together and the way they compliment one another, because this has been a pleasure to listen to.
Mr. Blask made the point that people feel better connected when they can see themselves reflected in their institutions. Professor Bridgman talked about how AI is restructuring a relatively unregulated information environment. He also talked about the high level of trust that people put in AI. One of you talked about the prevailing “I get my news here” perspective. AI fetches the content, packages it and presents it as fact. I think that was also said by Professor Bridgman.
What I'd like to do is ask you, Mr. Gunn, what happens when someone builds their own AI model using only sources they already agree with.
Fellow, National Centre for Critical Infrastructure Protection, Security and Resilience, Carleton University, As an Individual
We may all have the answer to that. Aengus would be the technical expert on something like this, but you'd be talking to yourself.
Conservative
Tamara Kronis Conservative Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
In that context, there's been a lot of focus on the messenger so far, in this session. There's been a lot of focus on AI, and on Meta and the other social media platforms. I think this lets us, as citizens, off the hook in a lot of ways.
If an AI system is trained to prioritize what a user already believes, how does a person challenge bad ideas or correct the errors they might be learning in that process?
Fellow, National Centre for Critical Infrastructure Protection, Security and Resilience, Carleton University, As an Individual
I'm going to note our own personal responsibility as citizens, because I think it's really important and shouldn't be abandoned or excused. That's not going to land well with your average 17-year-old, but I'm going to say it because I believe in that.
It's very difficult with technology and how it's been designed to work with us. I have a small theory. I could be totally wrong, and Aengus or Mr. Blask would know this better, but I bet people wouldn't use social media so much or post so much if there wasn't a “like” button. I see this on LinkedIn. I don't want to be on LinkedIn. I've used it for a reasonable amount of interesting information, but I know people are doing this for the likes. If they took out that small dopamine hit, I wonder if.... I don't know whether any of you have experimented with your dopamine levels, but this stuff really is a low-level dopamine addiction. It might be half a cigarette, but it is. Trust me.
Conservative
Tamara Kronis Conservative Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
What happens, then, when people start to trust those devices you're holding up? What happens when people start to trust those personalized AI systems and those influencers Professor Bridgman was a bit down on more than they trust the sources—the independent experts and journalists? What happens to our civic resilience under those circumstances?
Fellow, National Centre for Critical Infrastructure Protection, Security and Resilience, Carleton University, As an Individual
It lessens dramatically. I think we're facing that already. What you might then ask is, well, what else would you do? I'm about to—
Conservative
Tamara Kronis Conservative Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
The question I want to ask there is this: Who should be held accountable for that?
Fellow, National Centre for Critical Infrastructure Protection, Security and Resilience, Carleton University, As an Individual
Probably the people who built the systems, split between our own responsibility. Is that a fair way to put it? The only thing is that they're going to fight against that, so maybe we shouldn't wait for the day they fix it themselves. One of the first things we might look at is how much young people, or people of all ages, simply even know Canadian news brands and understand what goes into journalism. I think that's very low. That's the first problem.
You should maybe go on this, Aengus, because you know it better than I do. Aengus is right that in the replacement of even the recognition of a brand within a summary of a news article, you're stealing from journalism. The computer is spitting out a summary at you. It's wrong. I don't know how anyone pays for this. It reinforces the idea that you can get simple, fast information that may not even be accurate from a news system. It's not social media anymore. It's our LLMs.
Do you want to detail this, Aengus, since you're more knowledgeable?