Evidence of meeting #28 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was funding.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Conservative
Tamara Kronis Conservative Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Professor Charlebois, your research specializes in food systems and supply chains. I come from Nanaimo—Ladysmith on Vancouver Island, where it is often said that we have about three days of food supply at any given time. Food costs in my community are dramatically higher than in many other parts of the country. I could talk to you for days, but I'm going to start with an overarching question around cost. Can you explain a bit about how multiple distribution nodes, supply chain challenges and industrial carbon pricing contribute to the high prices that we experience on Vancouver Island and the worries that we have around food security and sovereignty?
Liberal
Élisabeth Brière Liberal Sherbrooke, QC
Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.
How does this question relate to the subject being studied today?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Chris Bittle
We'll get there, but can we get there pretty quickly? It's a pretty tenuous connection between this witness and civic resilience—
Conservative
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Chris Bittle
In this committee, one person speaks and one person listens. Please wait for me to finish. I will go back to you very quickly.
Get to that fairly quickly. I've granted a lot of latitude with respect to this witness and this witness's opening remarks. Please get there quickly.
Conservative
Conservative
Tamara Kronis Conservative Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
Professor Charlebois, can you talk a bit about the connection between food security and civic resilience?
Director and Professor, Dalhousie University, Agri-Food Analytics Lab
It's about understanding why food prices are going up, and it's about understanding food systems. Right now, if we want informed citizens, we want to make sure that they know the whole picture.
When we work on Canada's food price report every year, with 30 different scholars from all across the country, we look at 47 to 50 different factors. We look at climate change, costs of salaries, distribution, energy, geopolitics.... There are so many different factors affecting food prices. I think it's not fair for consumers to pinpoint one factor—for example, grocers exaggerating...and things like that—and that seems to be the overwhelmingly, I would say, convenient argument out there that is being conveyed.
Conservative
Tamara Kronis Conservative Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
In the context of the trust that Canadians need to have in pricing and in government regulation of grocery stores and the cost of food, can you talk a bit about how supply chain issues and things like industrial carbon pricing contribute to the high cost of food in communities like mine?
Director and Professor, Dalhousie University, Agri-Food Analytics Lab
Well, I kind of answered that question earlier. I would say that it is a factor, but it wouldn't be the overwhelming factor. Essentially, it's really about how to measure the entire spectrum. Right now, I would say that most of the analyses given that we see in the media actually apply a linear analysis on the impact of the policy. What we do is look at the periphery, the whole thing, including fertilizers and the energy used to process everything, and that's when you see that it's really a matter of scope. I think that's what's missing out there to allow Canadians to appreciate what's going on.
Of course, grocers certainly deserve their fair share of the blame. We just heard from the CBC about the scaling issue with meat. That can actually increase the price of food by either voluntary error or error. Certainly, there are a lot of factors that can contribute, but it's important to give the big picture, the whole picture, so that Canadians can appreciate exactly what's going on.
Conservative
Tamara Kronis Conservative Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
When there's a disconnect between people's understanding of how prices are calculated and the information being provided by institutions, what happens to people's trust in those institutions?
Director and Professor, Dalhousie University, Agri-Food Analytics Lab
It's a matter of consumer trust. Last year, we were arguing quite a bit that countertariffs implemented by Ottawa were impacting many food prices at grocery stores. It required the U.S. ambassador to Canada to finally say to Canadians in August that we were in breach of CUSMA with food. That's when Prime Minister Carney decided to finally eliminate all countertariffs in September. It took months for us to say to Canadians that countertariffs are a problem and countertariffs are making food more expensive at the grocery store.
Conservative
Tamara Kronis Conservative Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
In the context of that information gap, what's happening? What's the trend that you're seeing in your research around Canadians' trust in our institutions?
Director and Professor, Dalhousie University, Agri-Food Analytics Lab
Science is about nuance. The more complicated it is to convey the big picture, the bigger the temptation is to simplify the message as much as possible, which undermines trust.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Chris Bittle
Thank you so much. I'll have to intervene there.
Now we go to Madam Vandenbeld for five minutes, please.
Liberal
Anita Vandenbeld Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'll just return to the subject of the current study and direct a question to Ms. Leonard.
Following on from Ms. Normandin's questions, I'm very interested in the difference between funding that would go to civic resilience and, say, regular funding that goes to different organizations around the country. You've mentioned that the NATO Parliamentary Assembly is actually looking at democracy as fundamental to our security and to the foundation of our country.
Could you talk a bit about how this kind of fund...? We're talking about small organizations for which a little bit of money would go a long way. Could you talk about why that is something that needs public funding and the fact that it is fundamental to our existence as a democratic country?
Executive Director, Euphrosine Foundation
There are a few parts to the question.
On the question of public funding, I think if we decide that it's important, then it needs to be funded. There are only so many options in terms of how this kind of work can be funded, and government is part of the answer. I don't think it should be the complete answer, and that's also why I mentioned in my opening remarks that philanthropy is mobilizing in response to events around the world and seeing that this is important. I don't think government would be alone at the table, either on co-funding different organizations or maybe in a closer collaboration.
Ultimately, if we decide this is important and it needs to be independent, having multiple sources of funding is part of the answer.
To your question around what it would fund exactly, I heard the end of the previous panel discussing issues of social cohesion, and that is so important to Madame Normandin's point about community organizations being over-stretched. All of that is crucial, but I would distinguish general work around civil society from work that is about strengthening the connection between people and institutions. That exists on a spectrum from education around voting to the fact that you can come sit at committees and to misinformation, disinformation and media literacy.
There are all of those questions, from education to get out the vote efforts and community mobilizing and having spaces where people can discuss complex issues, such as, for example, citizens' assemblies. I know you heard from Mr. MacLeod and the Centre for Media, Technology and Democracy, who, as you've also heard, for example, have been doing these citizens' assemblies with young people around AI.
These opportunities for people to understand the complexity of policy are also important so that people have trust that policy decisions are made weighing factors appropriately.
Liberal
Anita Vandenbeld Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
Thank you.
In the few minutes remaining, could you talk about the difference between constructive and productive engagement and the kind of inflammatory polarization that might happen when people are getting information from sources that they're not engaging that way?
Executive Director, Euphrosine Foundation
Democracy fundamentally is about whether or not people are heard. We work with a consultant, Steve Joneslee, who said it very well, and I've never heard someone talk about democracy so succinctly. He said that democracy ultimately is whether we get what we want, and if we don't, do we understand why, and do we think it's fair?
Having the feeling of being heard is so important to being able to accept outcomes when outcomes may not go in your favour. We all know here—you know this better than most—that we can't serve the interests of everyone 100% of the time. We wish, but that's not possible.
However, having procedural fairness is important. I'm a big advocate for the fact that we need to reach across divides to have spaces where people can discuss complexity, and to come to realize, as I think Mr. MacLeod mentioned in his testimony, that when we bring people together over time, people realize they have a lot more in common than the things that divide them. I think time together discussing real issues is one of the ways in which we can make progress on complex policy decisions.
Thank you.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Chris Bittle
Thank you so much.
We will now go to Madame Normandin for two and a half minutes, please.
Bloc
Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you very much.
I would now like to turn to you, Mr. Carpay. This is an opportunity for you to speak in French, if you wish.
You talked about equity, diversity and inclusion standards. In your opinion, that is more divisive than inclusive, and you say that justice must be blind in the application of its rules.
I'd like to hear your opinion on the main theories that support this, particularly the theory of humanism as opposed to multiculturalism. This is indeed a topical issue in Canada. It is said that humanism focuses more on common values, whereas multiculturalism amplifies the differences among the various groups that must coexist.
Is your vision closer to humanism or to multiculturalism, strictly speaking?