Human Resources Committee on May 10th, 2007

[Shawn Tupper]

One province reported out for 2006. Of course, the difficulty with that question is that it's a bit premature, as they actually have until November of this year to release their reports.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

In 2005, then?

[Glennie Graham, Director, Child and Youth Policy Division, Department of Human Resources and Social Development]

Right now 11 jurisdictions have their 2003-04 reports out on their ELCC money. Five of them have 2004-05 reports out. Only Saskatchewan has the 2005-06 report out.

There is a natural time lag between when the money is transferred and when they're able to do their reports. Admittedly everybody, including the federal government, is currently late in putting out their reports for various reasons. So far we certainly haven't seen anybody say they don't intend to release their reports.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

I added up close to twenty reports in the last four years. Can you calculate how many child care spaces there are from those reports?

[Glennie Graham]

We can calculate based on a number of different things. We could use the PT reports that report on expenditure and spaces. We also have a third party report, the University of Toronto's education and care report, that provides very good trend information about child care spaces. I can say that there has been a consistent increase in the number of spaces since the late 1990s, and we expect that to continue because of the injection of funds.

On your question around bilateral funding, for the first year that was a trust fund. Even though there were no conditions attached to that money, we expect that many provinces have invested the money in child care and will report on it in their annual reports.

Also, transition payments were done last year. We know from the announcements made in the press that many of the provinces are going to use that money to invest in their child care systems.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

You can't say today how many child care spaces—

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Ms. Chow, we can put you back on the list again. I have to cut it off there, so we can get around.

I apologize. You were actually fourth on the list, but as I was talking, I put you up there anyway.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Thank you, but I didn't do any preamble.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Mr. Lessard was actually first on the list.

Mr. Lessard, you have a couple of minutes to quickly ask some questions, sir.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think I deserve a second round for having been so patient.

First of all, I would like to thank the departmental officials who have come here to provide information.

When we were studying Bill C-303, we realized that there was a vacuum with respect to aboriginal communities—Innu and others—and understood during the process that amendments had to be moved and incorporated into the bill. Liberals and NDP members also put forward amendments to close the gaps in the bill. This is something that has not being done in great detail for the legal standpoint, and that concerns aboriginals communities, particularly those that come under federal responsibility.

Are there any difficulties, any conflict between the legislation that covers aboriginal peoples and the right that we are seeking to recognize through Bill C-303?

[Shawn Tupper]

The relationship for communities living on-reserve would be with the federal government, and the funding for our programming that goes to aboriginal communities is largely focused on the on-reserve population. We certainly are able to continue that funding, and indeed those programs are able to operate. The way the bill is currently constructed, it wouldn't interfere in that relationship.

For the aboriginal communities living off-reserve, they may well receive funding from territorial and provincial governments. It is reasonable that the implications of this bill may affect their funding arrangements with provincial and territorial governments.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Mr. Lessard.

I have Ms. Dhalla, Ms. Yelich, and Mr. Lake on the list.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Thank you very much. I have a couple of questions. I think some of them are just building upon what Ms. Chow had asked.

In regard to the moneys that were transferred recently by the federal government, how many spaces will those actually create? Is there an accountability mechanism that you're aware of where provinces have to report in terms of the actual number of spaces that must be created with that funding that's been transferred?

[Shawn Tupper]

In the context of the announcement for budget 2007 and the $250 million, we are just embarking on discussions with provincial and territorial officials with respect to how accounting would be done in terms of their reporting. So we can't really answer that question because we haven't had the dialogue yet.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Secondly, in terms of the early learning and child care agreements you had mentioned that were signed in 2005, how many spaces have been created from that? Have you received the data, or are those the reports you're still waiting for?

[Glennie Graham]

The information we have in terms of space creation that's probably the most accurate is the data in early childhood education and care in Canada. The figures in 2004 were around 745,000 spaces. Our estimates—and we've done it just by looking at what the announcements have been since that time—are that in 2006 that will increase to 786,832 spaces.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

So from the early learning and child care agreements that were signed by the former Liberal government, we're looking at about 786,000 spaces being created?

[Glennie Graham]

Not necessarily only from that money, but the multilateral framework as well, because in 2004 I think there was very little money out the door. That particular agreement, the 2003 multilateral agreement, started out with a very small amount. It was $25 million. This year it's going to be $350 million. Some of that increase is due to the multilateral framework money that was in place before.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

So with the multilateral framework that was, again, signed by the Liberal government, in addition to the early learning child care, we're looking at the creation of approximately 786,000 spaces.

[Glennie Graham]

No, it's the difference between what was there in 2004, so it's some 40,000 spaces.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

About 40,000 spaces. So with the Conservatives, we're still trying to figure out when the dialogue starts in terms of how many spaces the provinces will have to create with that money that has been transferred to them, if any spaces at all.

[Glennie Graham]

We haven't begun discussions with provinces yet on the $250 million that was announced in the last budget.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

I have one last question.

We've heard varying figures from all the stakeholders we've heard, in terms of the actual cost for a child care space. We've been quoted everything, I think, from about $4,000 to $6,000 to $8,000 to $16,000. The issue that many of us around this table have heard is that with the taxable $1,200 that's being given per year, many parents find it frustrating—to be able to pay for an actual child care space.

Since you're from the department, we can perhaps get some objectivity around this. From your research and your particular data, what is the cost of a child care space, on average, in the country?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

That's the last question for right now. We can come back and put Ms. Dhalla on the list. But if you could finish that question up, we'll move on to the next questioner.