Human Resources Committee on April 14th, 2010

[Lisa Raitt, Conservative, Halton, ON]

My constituents also have concerns about pensions, and I understand the issue. The Bankruptcy and Insolvency Act does not come under my portfolio or my purview. That is under the Minister of Industry and that's why he and Minister Flaherty are charged with the mandate of looking at it. I will be happy to answer your specific questions about the WEPP in writing.

But it does not come under my mandate; it goes to Industry. Of course, we'll pass along the comments from today.

On your second question about the federal--

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

If that isn't part of your mandate, why do you talk about it in your report?

I understand that you gave $36 million and that we lost hundreds of millions of dollars with pensioners. There's a close connection in terms of work when you talk about workers.

[Lisa Raitt, Conservative, Halton, ON]

On the way the program was defined, it was defined to include workers who were employed by companies that went bankrupt. It was not defined to capture people who had been pensioned by these companies. You're asking me whether or not WEPP should include those as well. It doesn't currently. It is not part of the status of WEPP.

I understand that you'd like it to be so and my response is that both Minister Flaherty and Minister Clement are looking at the pension issues within their mandates and within the tools they have. I appreciate your feedback that you think WEPP should be utilized; however, the whole issue of pensions is being dealt with by another minister. But thank you for your interest.

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

Thank you, Minister.

We'll go to Mr. Cannan, please.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mesdames Ministers and officials, for being here today. In the spirit of national pink shirt day and our anti-bullying campaign, I'm glad that the spirit and intent of our colleagues here are respectful of that. We do have a responsibility to lead by example.

One of the ways we have been... I appreciate the comments from my colleagues. One comment was about housing and provincial jurisdiction. Coming from British Columbia, I'd like to thank our CMHC representatives for working closely with BC Housing. We have an excellent program. The province sets the priorities. They've been focusing on seniors and persons with disabilities and we've really had good success to date.

I'd like to focus on something. It was a break week last week. Wherever I went, I heard that there was an issue with regard to something that's been in the headlines. It had to deal with Canada's most notorious serial killer, Mr. Olson, and the fact that he is getting old age security and a pension while he's incarcerated. I don't know about you, but I just think it's preposterous. My constituents can't believe that somebody is entitled to these benefits, getting a cost of living allowance, and getting everything paid for. It's a joke and it's frustrating for all of us.

Our government has always put victims first, Madam Chair, and all of us around this table realize that it's important to respect the victims instead of the criminals. In 2006 we implemented one of the first offices for victims of crime, the Office of the Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime. Also, in this last budget, we're helping to support victims of crime and their families. So I know it's very important.

Maybe you could elaborate, Madam Minister. What are you hearing from Canadians and your constituents as far as our government's effective action on criminal justice matters is concerned? What are you hearing on the general issue of Mr. Olson?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

First of all, let me say that when I was first made aware of this situation, I was very angry, to put it mildly. I was very, very angry. This situation is totally unacceptable.

Like you, I was hearing from constituents and from Canadians right across the country during constituency week. Not one of them supported people like Clifford Olson continuing to receive taxpayer-funded benefits like old age security.

As soon as I heard about this, we took action. We are now reviewing all of the options available to us so that we can put a stop to this current situation as quickly as possible and prevent it from happening again, because it is just totally unacceptable. In fact, it's offensive to Canadians.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

That's great news. The sooner the better, I think. I'd be surprised if anybody in this room would disagree with that, so I thank you for your quick action--the sooner the better.

Minister Raitt, on an aspect of coming into this new portfolio as the Minister of Labour, I think you've jumped in 100%, full bore, and full steam ahead.

I'm a father of three adult daughters and they remind me of the aspect of equality, especially employment equity. What's our government doing to respect and enforce government equality with federal contractors?

[Lisa Raitt, Conservative, Halton, ON]

I appreciate the question, and actually, it's one of the aspects of the portfolio that I wasn't really clear on, but I'm really happy that it's something that we actually have in the government.

I do want to note that I like your pink shirt on stopping bullying, which is very dear to my heart as well in terms of making sure... In fact, we should all wear that in the House of Commons sometimes, so that we don't bully each other too--

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Maybe we could try that between 2:15 and 3, right?

[Lisa Raitt, Conservative, Halton, ON]

In terms of the federal contractors, as I said before, I was really pleased to see the recent report on employment equity with federal employers, because there has been some great progress.

We are committed to employment equity, but we're committed beyond... It's not just those employed by the federal government. The program you mentioned and that I'm talking about actually requires that all contractors with 100 or more employees sign a certificate of commitment to implement employment equity if they want to bid on a contract of $200,000 or more from the federal government.

If the contractor is successful in their bid, the contractor must implement employment equity obligations that are equivalent to that which we see under the Employment Equity Act. So it's the federal government reaching out, not just from our own employee base, but into the private sector as well, for anybody who wants to do business with us.

The department conducts a rolling review of federal contractors. As part of the review, actually, 148 of 446 contractors were disbarred from the federal procurement process for failing to complete or fulfill their employment equity obligations. So it's not just saying that we're going to do this; it's following up and it's reviewing. Then, when they don't adhere, we actually have them disbarred from the process. It's a very tangible way that our government has used the power in our procurement process to positively affect employment equity in Canadian businesses.

Thank you for the question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

Thank you, Minister.

Ms. Dhalla, please.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Thank you very much. I had a chance to sit on this committee for a number of years and it's a pleasure to be back, to be helping out one of my colleagues, and to have the pleasure of having both of the ministers here today.

I actually wanted to ask Minister Finley a few questions, but before I begin, however, I want to mention to Minister Raitt an issue that one of my colleagues from the Bloc brought up in regard to the pensioners.

I know that it's not part of your mandate, but I can tell you that throughout my almost six years since being elected, I've had a number of town halls in my constituency, and I have never ever seen the turnout that I did when I had a town hall for Nortel pensioners and seniors concerned about the issue of pensions.

Even though it may not be a part of your mandate, I would really urge and request you to take the message back to both of the ministers responsible that we do need to have an amendment made in the bankruptcy protection act to really ensure that these workers and people who are pensioners are protected in the future. The global recession has known no boundaries and no barriers, and I think Canadians across the country have been affected. As Minister of Labour, hopefully you can take that message back to them.

Now I'll go to my questions for Minister Finley. We had an interesting moment in my office a few months back when an older woman came in who had called for an appointment. We had never seen her before. She came in with a walker. As she struggled to get into the office, she had all of these plastic bags, and you could tell that she had not showered probably for days on end. It was really unfortunate to see.

She came to see me just to talk about politics. While talking to her, I was asking her how she got to my office. She mentioned that she had taken two buses. It was towards the end of the day. I asked her how she was planning to get back home, and she said she was going to be taking the bus. I asked where she lived, and she was very hesitant to answer. One of my staff members.... We were all in the room and we said that the staff members were also leaving and maybe they could drive her. My staff member decided to drive her. My staffer asked her where she would like to go. This woman would not say; she just wanted to be dropped off at an intersection. It was at that point that we discovered she didn't have a home, that she was homeless.

I bring up this issue because when people think about communities like Brampton, they take a look at the median income, which is almost $80,000, and think that it's a very prosperous city and community. However, the state of affordable housing in the community is an absolute disaster. People are waiting 21 years to get into a home. There are almost 13,000 families, or 30,000 people, on wait lists to get into affordable housing. I want to know what initiatives you are taking within your government to help these individuals, who are real stories. We read about the facts on paper.

More importantly, we are one of those industrialized countries in the world that do not have a national housing strategy. Do you foresee, with your vision, that your government will put in the time, effort, and energy to ensure that we as a country do have a national housing strategy so that we can help people like that woman who came into my constituency office?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Let's focus on the important thing here, and that is the people like the woman who came into your office. It is unfortunate that in a country as wealthy as ours and in an area as wealthy as Brampton there are still people who, for a wide number of reasons, find themselves homeless. It's not limited to the big cities and the wealthy areas. Unfortunately, we have them in my towns as well.

But what Canada does have--and where we are fortunate--is a wide spectrum of housing solutions that we do provide, with everything from emergency shelters to transition housing, supportive housing, subsidized housing, and affordable housing, and even incentives or discounts to help people buy their first home.

In the province of Ontario, where you and I both live, the province has assumed responsibility for these programs. We do provide funding, and we try to work with them to make sure they deliver what's required. One of the reasons we're doing this is that they said they know their local needs the best.

Let's face it. Right now, we are spending unprecedented amounts on housing and homelessness--$3 billion per year--and right now we have some 3,500 new projects under way right across the country to help ease the very situation about which you're speaking.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

What do you think is stopping the creation of a national housing strategy? I mean, when you talk to other stakeholders, organizations, and advocates... I think you said that in a country as prosperous as Canada, it's an absolute embarrassment, both nationally and I think internationally, for us as a country not to have a national housing strategy. Are you making efforts to try to ensure that this goal actually becomes a reality?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

I think we have to look at the reality. Places like the United States and New Zealand take the same kind of approach that we do, and that is to have a whole suite, a continuum of services and programs, that actually functions the way a “national strategy” would. But they're actually in practice as opposed to something we talk about. There is something we've been doing for quite some time. We do it in cooperation and conjunction with the provinces and territories, some of which have assumed responsibility for it.

Places like Australia don't have that second tier to deal with, nor does the U.K. We have shared jurisdiction in this country, and it's something that our government has committed to respect while we try to address the really fundamental challenges of those who are very unfortunate.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

I know it's--

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

I'm sorry, Ms. Dhalla--

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

[Inaudible--Editor]...the reality is that the strategy is obviously not working. When you have a 21-year wait list and 30,000 people waiting, we need to ensure that we do better and that there are programs to help many of these individuals.

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

Thank you, Ms. Dhalla.

We'll go to Mr. Casson, please.

[Rick Casson, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to thank Minister Raitt and Minister Finley for being here today.

I just want to take you out west for a little trip to Alberta. With our resource-based economy, we've been hit pretty hard with this downturn in the economy. Our unemployment rates are some of the highest in the country. Even last month, when some of the rest of the country was coming around, there were more people looking for work in Alberta.

One of the estimates I've heard in the last month or so is that as we move forward and this turns around we're going to need 80,000 skilled workers in Alberta alone. In order for Alberta to return to the economic engine that it was and to be a net contributor to the equalization payments in this country, which I'm sure many of the provinces around this table enjoy, we are going to need that.

Minister Finley, one of the programs you have is this apprenticeship incentive grant. You indicated that 143,000 Canadians have received help to get into the program, plus a completion grant. Is this something that's sustainable, that we're going to be looking at over the next number of years to get these trained people we're going to need as this economy starts to chug--as it has already--out of this recession? Will it help us get back to the spot where we were at one time?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

There's no question that Alberta has been very hard hit by the global recession. I know that southern Alberta, where you are, was facing real challenges five years ago with the BSE situation. Now it's the north that's been hit by the resources. We know that right across this country there are skill shortages in many professions, even during this recession. That's why we brought in the apprenticeship incentive grant.

We also brought in tax relief for employers who hire apprentices under this program. We want to encourage them to help young people get the skills they need. The completion grant and the incentive grant are both ongoing. These are a permanent part of the fiscal framework. Those are not temporary programs.

The other thing we're doing is helping with the tool tax credit. These people need to get their tools and they get a break on that. It's the same for textbooks.

If anyone is doing part of their apprenticeship through a college and they get a scholarship or bursary, we've made it easier for them. We've made sure, as a government, that these people aren't taxed on their scholarship and bursary income.

We want to encourage people to get the skills, and we're doing everything we can to help them get there. In fact we've launched a new program of student grants, as I mentioned earlier. It is helping 120,000 more students than were benefiting from previous programs. That's a lot. That's money they don't have to repay. That's reducing their debt burden when they graduate.

Again, we're hoping this will motivate people to get into these programs and get the skills they need for the jobs of the future.

[Rick Casson, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Is that 120,000 an annual number?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Yes, it is. That's 120,000 more per year. In fact, the grants program has now helped 265,000 students in the last year. That's free money. They don't have to repay it.

[Rick Casson, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you.

Minister Raitt, in your comments on employment equity, you said that the government's employment equity programs “encourage the establishment”, and you go on. How does that actually work? How do you encourage these private sector firms to do what they're doing? Is it training? Is it money? How does that work out?

[Lisa Raitt, Conservative, Halton, ON]

Since the act came into place in 1987, there has been a combination of everything. First of all, if you put the legislation in place, you want to help employers to understand what their obligations are, as well as helping them with the tools to enable them to carry out what is intended within the Employment Equity Act.

There are guides to help employers understand what they should be doing under the act. There are people within the labour ministry who can come in and help them understand what has to happen. That's really on the contractor side, but it's been embedded for such a long time within the system that we're actually seeing the benefits associated with putting this act into place.

As I indicated before, what is key, which we have seen in the newspapers today, is that before the creation of this act, women accounted for only 5% of the executive jobs in the public service and now they account for 43%. Today, if you take a look at this table alone, you can see your employment equity action at work--except for Mike.