Human Resources Committee on Nov. 25th, 2010

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you for being here this morning to tell us more about adoption.

I understand there are two types of adoption. As a general rule, there are public adoptions and private adoptions. There are also international and interprovincial adoptions, and what are known as domestic adoptions. As I understand it, along the same lines as what Ms. Folco was asking, you are particularly involved in international adoptions.

Are you also involved in interprovincial and domestic adoptions, in relation to a province? If so, what is the nature of that involvement?

[Jacques Paquette]

The answer is no. Our mandate relates solely to international adoptions.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

I'd like to address your testimony today. I'm sure you understand that the study we are currently engaged in, at the suggestion of Conservative members, has to do with federal support for adoptive parents. Overall, your involvement is primarily at the international level.

[Jacques Paquette]

I would like to clarify one thing. Current programs aimed at supporting families, children or adoptive parents apply at both the domestic and international levels.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

I understand. For example, with respect to employment insurance for--

[Jacques Paquette]

Yes, exactly. There is a tax credit for expenses incurred by people who adopt a child, for instance. Those benefits apply in both cases.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

In that connection, you were asked earlier whether there are improvements to be made. So that we can take full advantage of your presence here, we need to know how to frame our questions in relation to your responsibilities. To be a little more specific, we should really limit ourselves to the program that supports parents through benefits when they take adoption leave. That is my understanding. So, it's a fairly limited area of inquiry. We are wondering whether that program is adequate. I imagine that your answer will be that it's a policy issue and that it is up to us to debate this—unless I'm mistaken.

That eliminates three quarters of the questions relating to the adoption network that we might want to ask. So let's look at international adoptions, or your responsibilities at the international level. You, Mr. Paquette, and you as well, Mr. Griffith, I believe, have to see that international treaties are enforced with respect to child trafficking. Are there gaps in that area?

The purpose of this exercise is to see if we can make improvements. So, in terms of your responsibilities in relation to international treaties, are there currently any gaps or things that need to be fixed?

[Jacques Paquette]

In terms of international treaties, as I was saying, our biggest challenge—and it's the same for the international community—is to secure the necessary information to make the right decisions. Our role is to provide that information to the provinces and help the provinces make the best possible decisions, because it's their responsibility. Our job is to work through our own information networks and talk to our colleagues at the UN and in other countries in order to make the necessary inquiries. That is not always easy.

If you're asking me whether the system works perfectly, my answer is that in this area, at the international level and in certain countries, you can imagine that it's very difficult. I can't say that it's a perfect system. Could it be improved? It would be difficult, because that is one of the realities of working at the international level, in any case.

In my opinion, there must be appropriate efforts and good collaboration between federal departments and the provinces. If that collaboration were not adequate, there would be reason to be worried. On the contrary, the departments work very closely with the provinces. The same applies to discussions with the provinces and with our colleagues in diplomatic missions in other countries. Particularly in an area such as this, everyone wants to do their best. And based on the information available, we try to make the best possible decisions.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

So, Canada is not the one directing these relations; we're talking about cooperation under international treaties.

[Jacques Paquette]

Yes, in this case, it is a group of countries working together.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

I see. Mr. Griffith, do you have something to add?

[Andrew Griffith]

Just to add to Mr. Paquette's comment, I'd say there is the general administration, but our role is to review the applications on a case-by-case basis. In the different countries, our officers are reviewing the information to ensure that the adoption papers are correct, that there is no fraud involved, and so on. So that process takes time. That is just the way it is, because of the local environment, and it's always difficult.

Our officers do their best to check that the papers are in order, to ensure that it is a legitimate adoption. We cooperate with other countries under certain agreements. We do occasionally have problems in the child's country of origin, but that is part of the reality. There are no easy solutions; we have to review every single case.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

When a child is registered under the international adoption process, as I understand it—I want to be sure I have this right—once that child has joined his adoptive family, in a given province, the province and the parents take over responsibility. In other words, you no longer have to do any follow-up regarding that child.

[Andrew Griffith]

You are correct; that is the responsibility of the provinces. Our role is really to facilitate the child's entry into the country as a permanent resident or a citizen.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

In terms of international adoptions, there is the entire situation of the children—I want to be sure I understand the jurisdictional framework. For example, if a child is outside the country and wants to return, but his rights as a Canadian citizen have not been respected, is that something that would fall within your purview?

[Andrew Griffith]

Once the child is in Canada, the laws of Canada apply. Normally the provinces are responsible for child welfare legislation. We do not carry out any active follow-up of such cases.

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

That's all your time, Mr. Lessard. Thanks.

Mr. Martin.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

I'd like to follow up a little on the questioning of Mr. Lessard.

I think you probably do as good a job as possible. We know what the parameters are. Some of us who work with people who come to us for help with international adoptions understand some of the complications and difficulties of trying to help them with that.

Do you think it is important for your ministry to do some tracking afterwards to make sure you're bringing children into circumstances that are healthier for them than where they came from--often circumstances such as Haiti or where children live in orphanages? Should we in Canada and the Canadian government have some responsibility to follow up on that to make sure they're doing well?

For example, we just had a report tabled this week from Campaign 2000. It indicated that in Canada, one in ten children and their families live in poverty. Should we be bringing people from difficult circumstances to a place where they may continue to experience challenges? Shouldn't we know about that and be doing something to track that?

The reason we've asked for a review of the whole issue of adoption, brought forward by Mr. Watson, was to see where we are today as opposed to 10 to 30 years ago. Are we doing the right things? Do we have the right framework in place to make sure that when we bring children into this country they are experiencing a better quality of life than the situation they left?

[Jacques Paquette]

I would probably go back to one of the comments we were making at the beginning: that adoption is really a provincial responsibility. Even the preparation or the assessment of the family that is willing to adopt is being done at the provincial level. In fact, provincial authorities will determine whether the home where the child is going to be adopted is appropriate. That's really the responsibility. The assumption, from that point of view, is that any tracking or follow-up once the child is in the family remains the responsibility of the province.

Our role is really to facilitate the access to adoption at the International level and to make sure that the principles being established in the UN convention, which put the child's interest as the first priority, will be respected and that we are not contributing in any way to child trafficking, for example, and so on. But for the rest, the entire process within Canada is the responsibility of the province from the beginning to the end.

So if I understand your question correctly, it wouldn't be our role to do this. It would be as though we were going to question, first of all, the first assessment done by the province concerning the home study and then the follow-up to it. I would make a clear distinction between our role in facilitating access to International adoption and the process that happens within Canada.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Okay. You don't see your role, then, as being the gatekeeper. We deal with international affairs here at the federal level and have an important decision-making capacity, to make sure that in 2010, when we sign off an international adoption, we are in fact bringing children into a circumstance that's going to be better for them and not eventually become a difficulty for the Canadian system.

As I just said, we have a report this week that says one in ten children and their families live in poverty in Canada. We had a report last week that said we have almost 9,000 people accessing food banks in our country, and many of them are children or families that have children. Does this not become at all an issue for you—without becoming specific or challenging provinces in terms of their jurisdiction—as you look at the overall circumstance and at questions of our living up to the covenants and the spirit that often attends them, to ensure that we in Canada are in fact providing a good, healthy, and culturally appropriate place for these children to come to and prosper in?

[Jacques Paquette]

I'm not sure how I can answer this question, in the sense that what you're raising is the overall situation of children in Canada on one side and on the other side our role supporting the provinces or facilitating the decisions they have to make when they are allowing adoption from an international country.

As I said, the assessment of the family into which the child will be adopted is being done by the province, and they are asking several questions, as you can imagine, when they are doing that assessment. The assessment is done in the same way, based on fundamental principles that we find in UN conventions, which is basically to ensure the interests of the child. I would say again that this part of the decision is really the provincial decision; our role here in that context is to provide the information and facilitate the provinces' delivering their own mandate in that case.

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

Thanks, Mr. Martin. That's all of your time.

Mr. Casson.

[Rick Casson, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you all for being here this morning.

I'm going to direct my questions to Mr. Griffith and Ms. Usher. I don't suppose we have to tell you that members of Parliament do get the odd immigration case in our offices, and every once in a while they're tied to an adoption from a foreign country. Certainly we've all been through that.

Mr. Griffith, I'm encouraged to see that you're going to put a comprehensive plan on your website for people to use. This will help not only adoptive parents but our offices as well. I suppose it will cut down on some of the phone calls.

It's a confusing issue. We just dealt with one in my riding. The people were able to work through it, and it came to a good conclusion, with a couple of young children coming out of Africa. There were lawyers involved. Sometimes they're domestic; sometimes they're foreign. We have officers and embassies around the world analyzing cases. It's critical to be careful that these children can be legally adopted, and I understand that aspect of it. The time involved, the emotions that are triggered as soon as Canadian parents find a child they want to adopt in another country--it all becomes very emotional.

I don't know how you pick these folks to work in our embassies, or how they're trained. But it seems to me that when a decision is made by one of your officers, you pretty much stick to it. Very little can be done after that to open the case or have it reviewed.

How do you see the process working when there's a question on a decision by one of your officers?

[Erica Usher, Senior Director, Geographic Operations, Department of Citizenship and Immigration]

Thank you for the question.

Officers are trained. We have officers in 86 different points of service around the world. Officers, before they go out to adjudicate these files or look into them, are trained. They're trained in the act and regulations. They're trained in all of the different categories in how to process these files. They are given quite extensive training. As part of their training, they go to missions overseas with their supervisors, with their managers. They actively work on these types of cases.

Part of the act and regulations is that officers make their decisions based upon the information they have, based upon the information they've obtained in the application. So there's the whole question of fettering decisions. All of that is part of the regulations. They make their decisions based on the information that's available, in discussion with managers and other counterparts, wherever they go.

As Andrew mentioned, there are some places where there is a lot of fraud. There are some places where the trafficking in children is a real possibility, and you mentioned that. Our missions try to develop contacts within the local governments, so that they are familiar with senior officials in the local government. They try to understand what their laws are. They try to partner with them to ensure that the proper decisions have been made.

We try to facilitate as much as we can in those ways, but it's a challenge. It's very complex.

[Rick Casson, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Sometimes there's a question of the interpretation of the laws, whether it's the Hague convention or whatever. Sometimes we don't know how the local laws of the country apply to the situation. This is something we got into. I guess you can never get two lawyers to agree on anything, but they had different interpretations of the law. It seemed that they were at loggerheads and nobody would back up. One said it should be one way; the other said it should be another way. Who, in the end, has priority? Is it the country where the child is coming from?