I have one or two important questions regarding the solutions you suggested in order for you to get the help and support you need. I would like to know, first of all, if you have access to mutual help networks, support networks of adoptive parents. I know that such networks exist within the Canadian Council. I seem to remember that you said the last time that its funding had stopped, but are there any other types of networks?

Ms. Lewis, you have biological children and also adopted ones. Did you get the same amount of leave in both cases? Could you start answering this, Ms. Lewis and deal next with the support groups?

10:10 a.m.

As an Individual

Jennifer Lewis

I think what you're asking is whether there would have been a benefit to an extended leave for adopting. Absolutely. I don't think that the emotional or the stress aspect of adopting is taken into consideration when it comes to leave or parental leave. I understand that the terminology is touchy right now, and I understand that there are legal aspects to it, but I also believe that adopting.... You know, you recover from birth. There are still bruises from the adoption process. I don't know how else to describe it. You're emotionally stressed. There's a worry connected to adoption, because throughout the process, at any time it can be terminated. That is an overwhelming shadow.

10:10 a.m.

Bloc

Josée Beaudin Bloc Saint-Lambert, QC

Excuse me, was the parental leave of the same length?

10:10 a.m.

As an Individual

Jennifer Lewis

No, and to be honest with you, I'm sharing my transitional experience, but at this point, I was home already, so I wouldn't have benefited. This isn't about what I experienced, but it is about establishing something that will make adoption more something that people would consider, something that would encourage people to participate in the process of it instead of being overwhelmed by the roadblocks to it.

10:15 a.m.

Bloc

Josée Beaudin Bloc Saint-Lambert, QC

Thank you.

Yes?

10:15 a.m.

Board Member, Adoption Council of Canada

Laura Eggertson

Can I just answer the question, Madam Chair, on resources and networks? I know that Cindy Blackstock referred to some amazing post-adoption supports that we're supposed to have out there that don't exist for aboriginal parents on reserves. There's a lack of post-adoption supports generally everywhere. I think Nova Scotia has just hired a post-adoption support worker for the entire province, but there are very few out there. There are parent networks, and there are parental support groups, which are largely volunteer-run, and we, as the Adoption Council of Canada, do have some resources. We are kind of doing what Dan had suggested should happen. We are a sort of clearing house for information and resources, and we would love to be able to offer more resources such as webinars and seminars, and to host a database, which we're talking about, but we don't have the federal funding or any kind of funding right now to do that.

10:15 a.m.

Bloc

Josée Beaudin Bloc Saint-Lambert, QC

Thank you.

In your view, what was the greatest challenge before, during and after adoption? If you had to identify the greatest challenges that we would need to meet as a government, what would they be?

10:15 a.m.

As an Individual

Joy Loney

Our biggest challenge was just the fear factor, when you have to go through so many levels to make this adoption happen. In our case, we had the children in our home, but because they were aboriginal.... There were aboriginal children being removed from the foster homes when the adoption procedures began. Those children were being taken to the reserves. In our case the children came to us as newborns. We had these children as newborn babies, and we ran the risk of the band denying us the opportunity to adopt these children. It's very scary.

There are nights you do not sleep, because you hold these children.... Nobody can guarantee that it's going to happen, and you want to do what's right for the kids. So when you step out...and at times we said maybe we'll just continue fostering, because if we continue fostering and we don't make any waves, the children will stay here. But it's not in the children's best interest. The children need to have their own identity. Yes, they're aboriginal and they need to have that, but they need to have Mom and Dad. They need to relax. Our kids' grades went up. Their behaviours dropped off. They're home, and that's what every single child deserves, to grow up to be healthy and well-adjusted people in our communities.

Thank you.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

Thank you very much.

10:15 a.m.

Bloc

Josée Beaudin Bloc Saint-Lambert, QC

I too wish your family very happy holidays.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

Thanks.

Mr. Martin.

10:15 a.m.

NDP

Tony Martin NDP Sault Ste. Marie, ON

We've heard a lot over the last couple of weeks about what's needed. We've heard about extending the leave—the parental leave—for adoptive parents and the networks of support and all of that. Today I think we're into a bit of a different discussion, from two perspectives, from the previous group and you, about the importance of keeping children connected to their roots.

I have four children. You mentioned a scholarship for education. I think as parents there are two things you give your children, among a lot of other things. One is a sense of who they are--their roots, their culture, and all that--and one, of course, is their wings, which is their education. Hopefully, if you give them both of those, they'll make their way.

I guess there needs to be, obviously, in my view, a further conversation, of a constructive nature, with our aboriginal folks, who fear losing their children and fear losing their culture if they lose their children. It has an impact on parents and communities. That is versus your want to nurture and care for and bring these children up and give them a chance at something positive in their lives.

Do you want to talk to me a bit further about that?

10:20 a.m.

As an Individual

Dan Loney

Joy, my wife, is of Cherokee descent, so I think she speaks to that. We have always, in our home, had native culture. She was raised with it as a child, and we think it's very important.

I'm Irish Canadian of Irish-Scottish Canadian descent. And we celebrate that in our family, as do our adopted children. They are not only aboriginal. Their mother is Honduran. We celebrate in our family the Mayan culture, the Latino culture, because our children are half-Honduran. It's very important.

You can't deny your culture. It gives you your roots. I also believe that this is the strength of our nation. We are a multicultural society, and we don't need to have differences. We need to embrace those different cultures, and that is the unity and the fibre of our nation.

10:20 a.m.

Board Member, Adoption Council of Canada

Laura Eggertson

Mr. Martin, I'd like to also address that, if I could.

We don't need to be pitted against one another, and that is the political climate that is happening right now from both sides. Nobody's particularly at fault. I completely understand and empathize with the first nations, who don't want to lose their children and their culture.

What I know is that if my kid has to be locked in a closet by her mother—her birth mother—to keep her safe, she's at risk. And she needs to be cared for and given permanency and security when her birth mother cannot give it to her. That's the crisis that's happening right now for many of our children. That's a reality.

You know what? Neglect does even more damage than abuse of a physical or sexual nature, in many cases. The research shows us that, too. This is not neglect because people want to be neglecting their children.

They are absolutely right. Cindy and the other witness you heard from this morning are absolutely right about the need for prevention and poverty reduction and support for first nations individuals and families. But we also need to keep those children safe. We don't have any legislative barriers in our country to interracial marriage. Why do we have legislative and political barriers to interracial families? We can be inclusive.

10:20 a.m.

NDP

Tony Martin NDP Sault Ste. Marie, ON

I have just one quick....

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

I think you have about 50 seconds left, Mr. Martin.

10:20 a.m.

NDP

Tony Martin NDP Sault Ste. Marie, ON

You have 14 children. I have four. How do you afford to do that?

10:20 a.m.

As an Individual

Dan Loney

I have my own business. I'm a consultant, and we're very blessed that our business provides for that. Our family receives money for foster care for our foster children as well.

10:20 a.m.

As an Individual

Joy Loney

We have to say, too, that the children range from 31 down to eight. They're not all at home.

10:20 a.m.

As an Individual

Dan Loney

Do we have eight in the house right now?

10:20 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

10:20 a.m.