Human Resources Committee on Dec. 7th, 2010

[Conrad Saulis]

Okay. Sadly, and unfortunately, Mr. Martin, that reality is true for much of the information about the urban aboriginal population. A lot of the health statistics, life conditions, and social determinants of health numbers are based on studies of first nations on reserve, and the urban aboriginal health and social issues are not as well known and documented.

I think there's a lot of opportunity to be able to do that work, to do that work with Cindy's organization and our organization and with other organizations. We would certainly be able to help. But right now, as she says in her presentation, there is a huge dearth of information for the urban population.

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

Mr. Vellacott.

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

Thank you so much, Madam Chair.

I was very much looking forward to this presentation today. Cindy, in particular, your reputation has preceded you as being very knowledgeable, and various people have recommended that you would be a wealth of resources for this committee.

I want to start my remarks quickly, because I want to get my head around this, and get some perspective. I always struggle with the poverty thing, placing that as the blame for difficulties and so on. I came from a low-income family, a poverty family, you might say. If we had known about the low-income cut-off as a family, it would have been so high up there it would have been totally unattainable. We didn't even know about it, mind you.

I was the oldest of five boys and one girl. There were periods of time when my dad was not employed. If my mom and dad happen to read Hansard, they might hear some of this today. I suppose that by today's standards, even our house, compared to aboriginal homes and so on, might have been at the lower end, or possibly even condemned. I know it was torn down later. But it was warm in the winter. We had food, lots of garden stuff, and so on.

The upshot is that poverty did not drive our family apart. We had very few wants provided and supplied to us; most of our needs were met, although we weren't always even sure about that.

I say that to simply drive home the point that I don't believe that poverty in and of itself is the determining factor in terms of driving families apart. It certainly wasn't in our case; in fact, it drew us together. Faith was an important part of it and education was stressed. There were those kinds of supports.

Anyhow, with that as a background--

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

Madam Minna, when you have the floor--

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

[Inaudible--Editor]

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

No, I'm sorry, you were talking. I've asked you time and time again to please respect whoever has the floor.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Sometimes I ask a question for clarification.

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

I respect that, but I just ask that you respect when somebody has the floor.

Thank you.

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

I sincerely and honestly want to get at this issue and try to pull it apart. Yes, not having enough of an income and so on is sometimes a factor, but there are some other issues as well, obviously.

As was true in that era, I know that today a lot of families don't know anything about or access child and family services. So I need to understand, Cindy, a little more when you talk about child and family services. I really sincerely want to know what is meant by that. Most Canadians don't access it, don't know much about it. It may even be a fearful thing if child and family services has to step in. So tell me what you mean.

Then help me on the list of “services”. I'm assuming they might be things like education, health, and so on. My reserves have schools, and we have differences in terms of quality, possibly, although some would dispute that. But anyway, help me on this whole issue of services, and the poverty issue in particular.

[Cindy Blackstock]

Thank you very much, Member.

The issue of poverty has been well documented in child welfare research as a leading driver of all children into child welfare. It is one of the best predictors. Although there are families such as yours that were successful, good public policy is not when success is the exception. Good public policy is when success is the rule. When you have a cultural group, first nations people, that is consistently overrepresented not only in child welfare but also in the factors that we know from research drive children into care, like poverty, then we need to create conditions for their success.

One of the important pieces is giving them at least an equitable opportunity to succeed, as people with higher incomes, who are typically the non-aboriginal Canadians. There is no evidence that I know of where if you take a population that's disadvantaged and provide them inequitable services, you actually get better outcomes for children.

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

Just to the point on that, Cindy, do you mean specifically that they're not getting the educational levels, the health levels?

[Cindy Blackstock]

Thank you for that question.

We know from the Auditor General that there are shortfalls in education and we know from the research on Jordan's Principle that there are problems with health.

What I am here to talk about specifically is that we have to pay attention to all of those things, including child welfare services. A child welfare service could be that when you intervene in a family, your primary obligation is to ensure the safety and well-being of that child in their family home.

So the types of services that could be provided are things like family counselling, individual counselling for the child, supports for children with special needs, crisis intervention counselling, sometimes homemaker supports and services, and sometimes child care. It will depend on the specific needs of the child. I am saying, look at the full roster of services and make sure they're equitable.

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

Right.

To follow through on that question.... And I did want to note that I have a dear adopted aboriginal nephew and niece. They've had their struggles--fetal alcohol syndrome struggles--and so on. I think the parents would have gladly reconnected them with their culture if there had been a way to do that. This was after the so-called “sixties scoop”. They have reconnected now, but they're in their late twenties, early thirties. They're struggling, though, and they've had their difficulties over the years.

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

Mr. Vellacott, if could you please....

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

My question is, in Saskatchewan particularly, where 85%.... We know there's a big issue there and a big concern, as you well know. So if there are ways...and I gather it's difficult--

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

Mr. Vellacott, your time actually is up, so quickly ask your question, and then I'd like hear....

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

Okay.

The communities in Saskatchewan find it difficult to receive their own first nations back in. Is that again the issue of underfunding of services? They're not being received back into those homes, at least at any great rate.

[Cindy Blackstock]

You know, there are only two repatriation programs across the country, despite the harms of the “sixties scoop” and now the multi-generational effects of child welfare. There is no funding provided by the federal government to support first nations, Métis, or Inuit communities in being able to bring back community members who were placed outside of their communities. That's definitely an area for the attention of your committee, and it would be welcomed, I'm sure, by many first nations people who were adopted out, and for their families and communities.

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

Thank you very much.

We're going to do a very quick three-minute round, so that will basically be time for one quick question and a quick answer from each side.

We'll start with Mr. Savage for three minutes, please.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you, Chair.

It's good to see both of you again. And like all members of the committee, I commend you both on the great work you do on behalf of all Canadians, frankly.

Ms. Blackstock, I've heard you talk a lot, and very passionately and eloquently, about Jordan's Principle and its potential impact. It has been adopted by the House of Commons, but it hasn't been enacted in many ways and followed up on.

I want to find out exactly how the child first policy would be followed in the case of adoption. Can you just talk a little bit more about that?

[Cindy Blackstock]

Thank you, Member, for your question.

You may know that in many of the provinces and territories they've taken the step of providing what they call post-adoption supports for parents. Those are provided because some of the children who are most in need of permanent homes and families have significant special needs, such as the other member pointed out, with fetal alcohol syndrome. But without specialized services, some families don't have the financial means to adopt.

They didn't want finances to be a barrier for the adoption of the neediest children, so they developed a whole series of services that are available for parents off reserve to support the care of children post-adoption. Those are often not available on reserve because of the lack of implementation of Jordan's Principle. The provinces view the funding of those types of supports as a federal responsibility, and the federal government passes the buck over to the provinces. Sadly, it's the children and their families who consistently lose out.

I think it would be a wonderful thing if we saw the full implementation of Jordan's Principle. After all, it's simply ensuring that race isn't a factor in the distribution of government services. It's something that could be done, and it would make a big difference.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

You still have another minute.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you.

You spoke about the cultural and linguistic rights that are respected in terms of international adoption. You mentioned China's indigenous population, and India.

Can you talk a little bit about what Canada should be doing in that way, and what you think maybe is missing?

[Cindy Blackstock]

Well, the federal government, of course, through immigration policy and other factors, has a key role in international adoption. I'd like to see the federal government make it mandatory that if a child from an international country is indigenous, his or her indigenous group is documented and there are requirements on behalf of the adoptive parent to nurture and support that child's understanding of his or her indigenous identity, and, whenever possible, to nurture those connections going forward. At this point, those children are simply considered to be Chinese--versus indigenous, for example.