Human Resources Committee on Dec. 7th, 2010

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

Look at these young, beautiful grandparents. Well, that's wonderful.

Go ahead, Mr. Watson, please.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to our witnesses. I love all this discussion of children. My wife is the youngest of eight. Her father is now a grandfather to 56, and more are on the way. This is good--14 kids--but I'm getting sidetracked.

Ms. Lewis, thank you for helping me completely unravel here on this side of the witness table during your testimony.

I have a few things I want to try to get to in a very brief amount of time, so I'll ask you to keep your responses brief, if possible, and I will try to keep my questions brief.

There's one area that I think needs a little bit of exploration here, and it is around the transitional measure for adoption--transitional leave, or some sort of benefit.

Within the employment insurance system, parental leave deals with issues of attachment and care of the children, and it can be shared among caregivers, the mother and father. Maternity leave was given as something unique, recognizing, as the courts have said, the physiological aspects of giving birth and the need for recovery, for example. That's why biological mothers who give their children up for adoption get maternity leave but not parental.

In establishing some sort of transitional leave or adoption leave benefit, or whatever it's going to be called, I'm presuming, from my vantage point, that there needs to be some kind of substantiation of why that should be offered to adoptive parents or caregivers, as opposed to being lumped into the parental issue.

Ms. Lewis, I think some of your testimony has gotten to this already.

Ms. Eggertson, I don't know whether you have biological children as well as your adopted children. What is different from the parent's vantage point? What are the unique challenges you face as a parent, perhaps on the psychological side of things, that you didn't experience with biological children? If you can, plumb the depths of that a little bit for us.

[Joy Loney]

When we adopted the four, two came as newborns. That was easy. You're not dealing with any attachment issues. The children who come at two and a half and four and a half have attachment issues. They're upset, and it's no fault of their own. It is emotionally draining to hold these crying kids. They don't have words to describe their feelings. You never know if you're doing it exactly right, and all you can do is keep going forward and keep hoping, and just loving and loving and loving.

[Jennifer Lewis]

It's a process and an experience that is bruising. I don't think there's any other word for it. Every time you take a step forward, you're beaten back. I know it isn't the fault of the child, but there is absolutely an inability of these children to receive love. They don't trust love. They certainly don't expect that love is continuous, that it will keep going. It's almost as though they try to force your hand.

In experiences we had with our son, we'd say, “Wow, that's a great picture”, and he would look at us and tear it to shreds, because even that positive reinforcement on such a small level was too much for him to take. I believe--

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Are there difficulties for parents in attaching with the children?

[Jennifer Lewis]

Yes, absolutely, and I think we need to address that more honestly sometimes, because when you're spat at every single day, although the love never goes away, the ability to keep standing in the midst of it is extremely difficult. When you feel as though you're failing a child, it's easy to give in to that feeling if you don't have support around you to tell you to keep going. That support is key.

I don't know if that was your experience, but there were days when I did feel like a failure, and I'm not ashamed to say that. This was a situation for which I was ill-equipped. I think that's the best word for it. Every step forward, as I said, you're beaten back. It's at a level that you don't comprehend until you're experiencing it. Knowing that other people have experienced it helps to keep you in the right place, but it is difficult to attach to a child who is unwilling to attach.

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Watson. That's all the time.

We, unfortunately, don't have time for another round, but with the committee's indulgence, Madam Minna has just a very quick question of clarification. If it's okay with the committee, I'm just going to allow her to quickly ask that question.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

For Mr. Loney, if I could, you mentioned earlier the tax credit for food, clothing, and so on, and then you mentioned Bank of Canada mortgages for housing. Were you referring to the adoption of first nations to assist with first nations children, or all adoptions?

[Dan Loney]

All adoptions.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

It is irrespective. I just wanted to clarify that.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Chair, on a point of order, I wonder, before the Loneys leave, if they'd read the 14 names of their kids into the record.

I want to see if you both know all those names.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Dan Loney]

I would pass the name test. I would fail the birthday test.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Can you read in the names of your kids?

[Joy Loney]

Yes. Aaron, Andrea, Sean, Daniel, Stephen, Tia, Silas, Sarah, Josiah, Jenny, Kendra, DJ, Jesse and Chris.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

That's it?

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear!

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

That was good. It was a very good suggestion, Mr. Savage.

Thank you all so much. As I said, we're political and we're doing all of our political things that we do and we think somehow we're providing leadership, but when I look at you, in our country you are the great leaders. I just want to thank all of you for being here. Thank you for what you're doing, and on behalf of all of us, merry Christmas and a wonderful new year. Thank you again.

We will suspend for a moment, and then we'll go into committee business. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

Members, we have some business that we need to take care of, and we have until 10:45. I can't stay any longer, so could everyone please take their seats?

We are not in camera. We are public.

Mr. Martin, you have a motion that you wanted to move.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

I will table that motion for the time being, Chair, if you don't mind.

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

Okay. Thank you very much.

Then we have a motion from Mr. Savage. Do you want to move that?

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you, Chair.

I'm prepared to not have this debated now if the committee would rather.... I would table this as well for the time being.

Should I read it into the record? What would you suggest?

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

If you're not going to move it, there isn't any reason to. I'm just wondering if we should start some discussion on it, though. Are you actually saying you'd be prepared to move it on Thursday?

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

No. If Mr. Martin is deferring his, then I will read mine in and we can have some discussion on it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

We have 10 minutes. Why don't we start the discussion, and then we would have to finish it on Thursday.

Mr. Lessard, do you have a point of order?