Evidence of meeting #64 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was companies.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Maximilian Metzger  Deputy Director-General, International Cooperation in Education and Research, German Federal Ministry of Education and Research
Maren Verfürth  Research Associate, International Cooperation and Advisory Services, German Institute for Vocational Education and Training
Hannes Barske  Senior Scientific Officer, Project Management Agency, German Aerospace Center, International Bureau of the German Federal Ministry of Education and Research
Christiana Tings  Deputy Head, International Cooperation in Education and Training, European Union Programs, German Federal Ministry of Education and Research
Mathew Wilson  Vice-President, National Policy, Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters
Jim Diotte  Vice-President, Human Resources, Safety and Environment, SaskPower

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

I will now call the meeting to order. We've established that our translation is working so far. I'm hoping that if there are any translation issues, we'll deal with them.

I would like to welcome the German Federal Ministry of Education and Research. We will ask Maximilian Metzger and Christiana Tings, who are there, to introduce themselves. Also, we will hear from representatives of the International Bureau of the German Federal Ministry of Education and Research and the Institute for Vocational Education and Training.

We look forward very much to hearing from you this morning. We know that you've done some very interesting and favourable things as far as apprentices are concerned, both for young apprentices and for female apprentices. You've had a fairly good success rate and we want to hear how you've done that.

Initially we will have a presentation from each of you, and then we will open it up to questions from our committee members.

I'm assuming that you've heard all of that. If you have, we would ask you to open with introductions and then brief statements.

11:05 a.m.

Maximilian Metzger Deputy Director-General, International Cooperation in Education and Research, German Federal Ministry of Education and Research

Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to have this exchange with you. We hope the technical conditions will enable us to have a good exchange. Please signal if you are experiencing any communication problems.

If I may, I would like to make the introductions. I am responsible for the department. I am the deputy director-general. We are responsible for all countries outside of Europe, including training in science and research.

With me is Mrs. Christiana Tings, who is responsible for international cooperation in education and training. Also here is Mr. Barske, who is an expert in co-ops and education. He works for an agency that works for us. We also have with us Mrs. Verfürth, who is an expert at the German Institute for Vocational Education and Training. She focuses on the Americas and India. Mrs. Verfürth is part of the German institute that looks after research in the area of training. She does scrutiny of regulations and she looks at international standards and international cooperation.

Today we'll be talking about progress made in occupational training in Germany, unless you, Mr. Chair, would like to first of all give us some information on the Canadian system and point out any areas in which you have a particular interest.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

As a committee we've been hearing witnesses in our Canadian jurisdiction to the effect that we should deal much earlier in our school system with vocational training and apprenticeship for potential occupations than we do now. We should perhaps have a promotional package that would involve the parents as well much earlier than we do. We have an interest in that area. Then how do we get our provinces to have similar programs that would address real needs and shortages in particular areas? In that regard, how do we deal with our first nations community and aboriginals? How might we be able to better engage them, perhaps where they're located? We're looking at ways and means to improve our system, and anything you might give us in that regard would be helpful.

With that, I'll turn it over to you to make your presentations.

11:10 a.m.

Deputy Director-General, International Cooperation in Education and Research, German Federal Ministry of Education and Research

Maximilian Metzger

In that case, I will provide you with some basics on vocational training in Germany. Occupational training means we have a dual system whereby students are employed by companies and do part of their training in a vocational school. That's what we mean when we talk about dual training.

In Germany, this training has been given a great deal of priority. It doesn't have the same reputation as university training perhaps, but it has a lot more prestige here in Germany than it does compared to other countries where, if you don't go the university route, you're not viewed as having as good an education.

In Germany, as is the case in other German-speaking countries, such as Austria and Switzerland, this dual training goes back to the Middle Ages. We have a very long tradition here. The biggest challenge lately has been to adapt this training to technological changes or to meet industry requirements, and where we have technological needs, we need to develop new professions without necessarily turning back to the old traditions.

Up until now, we have been more or less successful in Germany, as is the case in Austria and Switzerland. There is very little unemployment among young people, and that's something that we feel is very positive, unlike the case in many other European countries. The demand for our occupational training is very high, both within and outside the European Union. That's why international cooperation plays a very important role in occupational training.

What I have understood is that in Canada, you have a very good occupational training program, you have very little youth unemployment, and you have a good level of training, so we're supposing that occupational training in Canada works very well and is very successful.

Those are my introductory remarks. I would now invite Ms. Verfürth to present the basics of vocational training in Germany.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

Go ahead.

11:15 a.m.

Maren Verfürth Research Associate, International Cooperation and Advisory Services, German Institute for Vocational Education and Training

Mr. Metzger introduced me. I come from the German Institute for Vocational Education and Training. I've been there for three years now and I'm responsible for America, Africa, and India.

Today I'd like to give you a brief description of our dual system and say a few words about the institute. The dual training system in Germany, as Mr. Metzger said, comprises two parts to the training route. First of all, there's training offered in the company and we have vocational schools. As you can see on the slide, responsibility is shared by the federal government, which looks after the company component, and the vocational schools, which come under the länder, or provinces.

I will give you a little overview of this dual system. This system combines theory and a practicum. There are two places where the training is offered. As I said, this has been recognized worldwide and it has demonstrated its usefulness. This is a very good occupational training program. What's important to note is that this is a shared responsibility between the state and industry or the economy. There are 350 state-recognized training occupations. They're recognized in legislation. These two components play an important role in defining these trades.

More than 50% of the young people decide to begin training within this dual system and many companies are therefore prepared to provide training in their companies. They assume the cost of this training because they feel this is the best way to ensure that they have highly skilled workers who have been trained in the company, thereby reducing their staffing costs. Because this has an impact, it will in fact reduce recruiting costs.

The advantage for the young people, the apprentices, is that they are trained to meet market needs, and therefore, they have a better opportunity of finding jobs. They can also remain in the company where they trained. The advantage to the state is it costs the state less money. As a result of this participation with industry, the cost is borne by the economy, and we always have a good pool, an adequate pool, of skilled workers.

The main advantages of this dual system are that we train people based on industry needs and, as Mr. Metzger stated earlier, there is very little youth unemployment. I think it's standing at 8%. That's not very much compared to the rest of the EU.

This dual system wasn't set up just a few weeks ago; it goes right back to the Middle Ages.

Right now we're working with 35 different countries and we see there is a growing dual system now throughout the world.

The five keys to success are as follows:

The first is there is the cooperation between the government and industry, as I just described. The state and industry set the parameters for the occupational training, the funding, the implementation of a program, and the funding of that program.

The second point is learning on the job. Apprentices learn to work independently, and they acquire a variety of skills that are both practical and theoretical at the vocational school.

The third point is the acceptance of national standards. We have standards that are accepted nationally, and in the 16 länder, these standards are comparable. If you go to Westphalia you can learn a skill, and you can easily transfer that skill to Bavaria.

The fourth key to success is that we have qualified training staff within the companies. These people must be trained just as they are in the schools. That way we can provide ongoing consistent training throughout the program.

The fifth point pertains to research and career guidance. Our institute provides this. We do research so the system is always up to date, and we can tweak it to ensure our system meets the evolving needs of industry. We can always adapt our system to meet these needs.

I would like to talk about the training benefits from the perspective of the companies. In Germany, three-quarters of all companies do in fact offer apprenticeship spots. The reason they do this is this is the best way to ensure they have enough qualified staff on hand, and the people feel they are a part of the company, a company that provides training. The apprentices identify with the companies, but they also have a positive image of the company. The company has qualified staff, and this increases the value of the company.

I will give you an example. An apprentice earns a monthly salary of approximately $1,000 Canadian. Another important aspect is that every time I make this presentation before a foreign audience there is this realization that the funding for apprenticeships comes from the companies themselves. Seventy-five per cent of the funding comes from the national employment agency, the länder, the provinces.

On one final point, our institute came into being in 1970. We are the international centre for developing skills in the vocational field. Mr. Metzger has already said that we are active in the area of research and guidance, and now we have a law that governs the system. We're funded by the Federal Ministry of Education and Research. We have 630 members on staff and 29 apprentices. On the last slide you can see a flow chart of our organization. We have 16 different sectors of work, and we have a central department.

If you have any questions whatsoever, I'd be prepared to answer them.

11:25 a.m.

Deputy Director-General, International Cooperation in Education and Research, German Federal Ministry of Education and Research

Maximilian Metzger

Thank you, Ms. Verfürth, for your overview.

I would suggest that we wrap up our presentation, and we will take any questions you may have there in Canada.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

Thank you for that presentation. We appreciate that very much.

We will open it up to questions. We'll start with Ms. Charlton.

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Chris Charlton NDP Hamilton Mountain, ON

Thank you, Chair.

[Member spoke in German, interpreted as follows:]

Yes, I'm very glad that we will have the opportunity to talk about the system in Germany.

My parents were born in Germany. My German is not good enough to keep asking questions in German, so I will switch to English.

[English]

I appreciate the emphasis that you put on the partnership between the government and industry in terms of providing opportunities for apprenticeships. I wonder if you could speak a little bit about the role, if any, of labour unions. I know that union density is still quite high in Germany, and is very active in industrial workplaces. I imagine that there is an active role, at least a supportive role, and I wonder if you could speak to that a little bit, whether it's a tripartite relationship or a bipartite relationship at the root of the success of the apprenticeship program.

11:25 a.m.

Research Associate, International Cooperation and Advisory Services, German Institute for Vocational Education and Training

Maren Verfürth

It's not really only three stakeholders; there are a lot more stakeholders that are involved. For example, when it comes to developing standards, it's not only the trade unions that are part of this, but also the employers, the state, the länder, and all of this is moderated in the BIBB, in our institute.

11:30 a.m.

Deputy Director-General, International Cooperation in Education and Research, German Federal Ministry of Education and Research

Maximilian Metzger

Maybe I can add to this.

We have quite a good balance between the employers, employees, and trade unions. These institutions have a dual function. On the one hand they are represented in the companies. The entrepreneurs are organized in their own associations, and the employees and apprentices are part of this. They belong to a trade union, or they can belong to a trade union if they so choose. That's the basic situation in the industry. Apprentices are integrated into the work process. They are, so to speak, normal employees, workers.

In our institute, the Federal Institute for Vocational Education and Training, or BIBB, we have advisory councils. In these advisory councils, trade unions are always represented just as well as the employers' associations, and they can have their input.

Mr. Barske wants to add to this.

11:30 a.m.

Hannes Barske Senior Scientific Officer, Project Management Agency, German Aerospace Center, International Bureau of the German Federal Ministry of Education and Research

If I understood your question correctly, you were also asking about the different levels. At the national level, in the main committee, the trade unions are represented, but they are also represented at the local level. The trade unions participate at all levels. That goes back to a time in the late 19th century when social laws were developed in Germany under Bismarck. They wanted to make sure that not only the employers participated in these very important social developments, but also the trade unions.

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Chris Charlton NDP Hamilton Mountain, ON

Thank you.

I'd like to follow up in a different vein. When you spoke about incentives and particularly the incentives for industry to make the system work, you talked about the reduced staffing and recruitment costs. You talked about, of course, having a trained workforce at the end of the apprenticeship and training program.

Does the German government provide any financial incentives to industrial partners for the creation of those positions, or does industry just understand that it's in its own rational self-interest to be a full partner in the apprenticeship program?

11:30 a.m.

Christiana Tings Deputy Head, International Cooperation in Education and Training, European Union Programs, German Federal Ministry of Education and Research

Basically, it's in industry's best interest to offer training spots, to make sure they have skilled labour. In difficult economic times, of course, we have to have certain agreements between the government and the employers' associations. They sign a training pact to make sure we have a sufficient number of training spots. This is also funded with financial support from the European Union. There are programs that promote new training spots in companies, to give incentives to companies to make room for apprentices.

11:30 a.m.

Deputy Director-General, International Cooperation in Education and Research, German Federal Ministry of Education and Research

Maximilian Metzger

I would like to add something to that. The principle behind it is that there shouldn't be an incentive. The companies should see it as in their interest to see the training of young people as an investment in their future, and that normally works. But if the economic situation is too volatile, then we interfere just a little bit to help it along, but not very strongly.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

Thank you for that exchange. We'll now go to Mr. Mayes.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much to the witnesses for being here today.

Your trades training in Germany is world renowned. I read a report on the structure and policy of your trades program, and I was very impressed. One of the challenges we have in Canada is that the average age of entry to the trades is 26. Introduction to the trades in your education system starts in grade school.

Can you tell me how you determine the students that follow the educational trade path and at what age they start?

11:35 a.m.

Deputy Director-General, International Cooperation in Education and Research, German Federal Ministry of Education and Research

Maximilian Metzger

Well, that is quite a problem actually. In the past decades, the separation between an academic education and a non-academic education started really early, probably too early. That is why we have to do quite a bit these days to make sure that both tracks are more permeable, so that you can start vocational training and then continue on with academic university courses. The split happens very early, and it is done based on the interest of the young people.

There is a certain inherent risk, the risk that the students with higher, more developed talents choose the academic track, and the less well developed ones choose vocational training. It's the job of politicians to do something about this and to make sure that both educational tracks are equal. But the split really happens at the age of 15 or 16.

Maybe I should add that we have a situation more and more often in Germany where young people do strive to go to university but decide to be an apprentice first.

11:35 a.m.

Research Associate, International Cooperation and Advisory Services, German Institute for Vocational Education and Training

Maren Verfürth

Maybe I can give you an example citing my professional background. I did my school leaving exam. Until 18 I went to grammar school. Then I decided to do vocational training: European secretary, international office manager, I believe, is the equivalent. Then I decided, after finishing that, to go to university. You can do that; it is permeable in that way.

11:35 a.m.

Senior Scientific Officer, Project Management Agency, German Aerospace Center, International Bureau of the German Federal Ministry of Education and Research

Hannes Barske

Maybe I can add that it is no longer the case that if you do not have a school-leaving exam that you will have to become an apprentice. The system is so well recognized now and so valued that even people who have the highest school leaving exam choose this vocational training to learn a trade, because it opens up a whole array of paths until the so-called master certificate. They can make just about as much money as somebody who went to university.

11:35 a.m.

Deputy Director-General, International Cooperation in Education and Research, German Federal Ministry of Education and Research

Maximilian Metzger

I can tell you an interesting story.

We have a new president here at our Federal Institute for Vocational Education and Training, Professor Esser. He learned a trade. He's a baker, a simple baker. After becoming a baker he went to university. He got his school leaving exam and he went to university. He got his Ph.D. and he became a professor.

Those sorts of careers are possible. They're not the rule, but they are possible. Our political goal is to open up more opportunities for careers like that and to make our system more flexible.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Thank you. I'd like to be at coffee break with your baker.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

Thank you, Mr. Mayes.

We'll now move to Madame Boutin-Sweet.

11:35 a.m.

NDP

Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning to all of you. I will be asking my questions in French.

I would like to begin with your dual system. I understand that part of the training is provided in the company workplace and the other part in a vocational school. Here, in Canada, we do the same thing, but we do have some issues with the school portion.

In Canada, apprentices start a little bit later than they do in Germany. On the financial side, people are entitled to employment insurance benefits and often have to wait quite a while before receiving their initial benefits. This explains why some individuals decide not to enroll as apprentices or simply drop out.

How have you resolved this problem? Does having apprentices start younger have an impact? Moreover, if your system includes apprentices who are slightly older—individuals who are already in the labour force—how do you deal with the financial issues when they go back to school?

11:40 a.m.

Deputy Director-General, International Cooperation in Education and Research, German Federal Ministry of Education and Research

Maximilian Metzger

The financial side is not much of a problem. As Ms. Verfürth already said, apprentices earn money right from the start. They are paid like regular workers. They get less money, of course. It's a modest wage. You can typically not live on it 100%. But a typical situation is that these young people, when they're 16 or 17, continue to live at home and then they get a little bit of a wage and that is enough to live on.