Human Resources Committee on Oct. 25th, 2018

[David Lepofsky]

Maybe I was younger. I've read these debates, and forgive me, but my ears glaze over after a while—

[Gordie Hogg]

You should try sitting on this side for a while.

[David Lepofsky]

—but don't take that personally.

One suggestion that was raised from someone was that we should grant exemptions if people are already in compliance. Well, if they're in compliance, they don't need an exemption. Then there was the suggestion that we should grant exemptions so they comply with provincial access standards. Well, if the provincial access standards are too weak, as is the case in Ontario, that's no basis for an exemption at all. This has to be much more narrowly tailored if it's going to happen at all.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much.

[Gordie Hogg]

Thank you; that's helpful.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

MP Ruimy, you have about four minutes.

[Dan Ruimy, Liberal, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Thank you.

Just picking up off my colleague's statement, if we're a bank, for instance, and you wanted to test new equipment or you're developing new equipment, would that be a reason to have an exemption—while you're testing that equipment?

[David Lepofsky]

No, and I'll tell you why. One, the access standard should have built into it the kind of flexibility to address that. If the access standard for an automatic teller machine says you need equipment that will accomplish the following outcomes—A, B and C—then if they're testing something new, either it should meet those requirements or an existing ATM that already meets those requirements should be sitting there, and we, the user, have the choice to try one or the other.

You don't tell people with disabilities, “Well, we're trying out new steps, so until we finish trying out the new steps, no ramp.” It just doesn't make any sense.

Yes, there should be room for experimentation and innovation, but not at the price of accessibility in the interim. As long as there is accessibility in the interim, go experiment with anything new. Moreover, if you design the standards well, your question won't need to be asked, because the outcomes are what the standard might require: a machine that will enable me to do A, B and C without seeing or hearing or reading text.

[Dan Ruimy, Liberal, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Thank you.

It's nice to see you back here. You were in my copyright committee last week. We're doing the five-year legislative review of copyright, and we specifically wanted to include a portion on disability to make sure that if there are any amendments to copyright law, we could apply them to your community. That's kind of eye-opening for a lot of people, and I heard your testimony there.

When we're talking about timelines—and I'm just trying to wrap this all together because I don't have a lot of time—what we're hearing is an evolution of where we want to get to. There's no one thing that tells us we're there and we're done. It's a process to get to where we want to go.

I received an email from a constituent yesterday. She says she's a person with multiple chemical sensitivities and hyper-electrosensitivity and finds it difficult and painful to enter all public places, including government and medical offices and hospitals, because of the use of chemicals, chemically scented products and wireless technologies, including Wi-Fi.

This could be considered a disability. How does one even include that? When you're talking about folks who can't hear or see, those are things we know, like people in wheelchairs. This takes it to a different level. You can't put a timeline on that. I can see timelines on when bodies are going to come together and how long it's going to take for certain standards to be developed, but it's an ongoing process.

Can any of you speak to that?

[David Lepofsky]

As I understand your question, what you're really saying is that we can set timelines for taking actions like when to start enforcing, when to have agencies set up and when to make standards, but you're questioning whether we can have an end date.

[Dan Ruimy, Liberal, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Yes.

[David Lepofsky]

We have one in Ontario, and what you just talked about didn't hold us back. It hasn't held back that timeline from creating positive pressure on organizations to sit down and figure out how we're going to get there and get to work on it. It's not indefinite; 2025 is getting closer. It hasn't stopped us from being able to turn to the government and say, “You're behind schedule; here are the things you need to do.”

[Dan Ruimy, Liberal, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Just to push back on that, yesterday we heard from Manitoba, which had a 10-year deadline, and they're very disappointed with where they are at the five-year mark. These are the challenges you face when you implement a drop-dead timeline. That's the challenge that we as a committee are facing.

[David Lepofsky]

Just so you understand, we share Barrier-Free Manitoba's concern about the progress in Ontario, but the solution to that is not to take away the very powerful tool we have. The solution to seeing that they're going too slow is not to create a yardstick to measure slow by; the solution is tell the government, as we are in Ontario and as they are in Manitoba, that it's not on schedule and to get to work.

We need tools that require the government to have not only that end timeline, but intermediate timelines that are more effective and that will more effectively keep us on schedule.

[Dan Ruimy, Liberal, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

I agree.

[David Lepofsky]

The solution to your problem is not that we should avoid having an end date because we may not make it, but to create an end date that's doable—not one that's next week or a millennium from now—and then implement intermediate timelines designed to make sure we're on schedule.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Excellent. Thank you very much.

I'm going to have to step in and wrap this panel up. I want to thank all of the witnesses for being here today and contributing to the study of this bill.

We will suspend for a few moments while we set up the next panel. We'll be back in just a few minutes. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

We'll come back to order.

Welcome to our next panel.

We have joining us today, from the Canadian Association of the Deaf, Frank Folino, president, and James Roots, executive director.

Welcome to both of you. Thank you for being here today.

Coming to us via video conference from Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, we have David Arnot, chief commissioner of the Saskatchewan Human Rights Commission.

Can you hear me, sir?

[David Arnot, Chief Commissioner, Saskatchewan Human Rights Commission]

Yes, thanks.

Good morning.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Good morning.

Thank you very much for joining us on what would be a very early hour for you this morning.

We're going to start off with the Canadian Association of the Deaf. Frank Folino and James Roots, the next seven minutes are all yours.

[Frank Folino, President, Canadian Association of the Deaf]

[Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for inviting us to appear before this committee to study Bill C-81, the accessible Canada act.

My name is Frank Folino, and I am the president of the Canadian Association of the Deaf.

This is my colleague, James Roots, executive director of the Canadian Association of the Deaf.

The CAD-ASC is a national non-profit organization that promotes accessibility for deaf people who use American Sign Language, ASL, and

Quebec sign language.

CAD-ASC works with the Federal Accessibility Legislation Alliance, FALA, to advise and improve Bill C-81, the accessible Canada act. Bill C-81 is very important for persons with disabilities and deaf persons, as it would lead to an improvement in their quality of life. The Honourable Carla Qualtrough, Minister of Public Services and Procurement and Accessibility, has stated that 5,000 new jobs will be created for people with disabilities and for deaf, blind and hard-of-hearing persons in Canada.

We commend the Government of Canada for introducing Bill C-81, which is the right step towards becoming an accessible Canada. CAD-ASC and the deaf community want Bill C-81 to be improved and to become law.

We would like to recommend the recognition of ASL and LSQ as official languages of deaf people in Canada because they do actually provide full accessibility to information, communication and services. It will make a huge difference for deaf Canadians, and you will be in compliance with the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, CRPD, that Canada ratified in March 2010, which has five different articles that mention the specific rights of sign languages.

Currently, there are 45 countries whose governments have recognized their national sign languages, including Ireland, Greece, Scotland, Italy, Mexico and New Zealand. Canada is not on this list. Such recognition in Canada would ensure the removal of barriers and ensure equal access, which is an important step towards becoming an inclusive, accessible Canada.

As we integrate both English and French societies, this means that deaf people in Canada would finally have equal access to federal government services. Examples would be production of accessible videos on federal government websites, provision of ASL and LSQ video interpreting at federal government services—Service Canada would be one example—provision of picture-in-picture ASL and LSQ interpretation services for broadcast television and digital communications such as federal leadership debates or emergency alert announcements, and any other kind of accessibility services.

Let's imagine for a moment how Bill C-81 will improve the lives of deaf people in Canada. Let's say that a deaf person is at the Ottawa International Airport and his or her seat needs to be reassigned due to an overbooking by the airline. The deaf person approaches the airline customer service representative at the gate, and they connect by video interpreting services. Immediately, they are able to communicate in ASL or LSQ through a video interpreter to resolve the overbooking issue and to reduce stress and confusion.

A second example would be a deaf person who is watching a federal political leaders' debate with sign language interpretation. For English, the debate has ASL interpreters, and for French, it has LSQ interpreters, picture-in-picture on screen, with closed-captioning in English and in French so that we as deaf people can participate and be privy to what is happening during the debate in order to have a good understanding of the different platforms that the candidates have.

Therefore, we believe amendments are needed for Bill C-81 to achieve its stated purpose. Today we highlight several recommendations.

One, we recommend that Bill C-81 include an amendment that will recognize ASL and LSQ as official languages of deaf people in Canada. This will allow Canada to join other countries that have already included in their national accessibility legislation recognition of their national sign languages, following the requirements of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities.

Second, timelines are essential for ensuring that Bill C-81 will advance accessibility. We recommend dates and timelines of up to five years for development and implementation of accessibility standards and regulations for each targeted area.

Third, CAD-ASC agrees with the Federal Accessibility Legislation Alliance, or FALA, recommendation that the six targeted barrier areas must be expanded to include communication. This change will bring focus to barriers, accommodations and supports for people with communication disabilities, as well as for people who are deaf.

Fourth, Bill C-81 does not designate a single point of access to oversee the complaints process. We recommend standardization of process for timely resolution of complaints, and a single point of access that supports deaf people and people with disabilities who present complaints, which will avoid unnecessary barriers, delays, and inefficiencies to the process. To avoid these problems, the accessibility commissioner should receive all complaints about violations of accessibility standards.

Fifth, financial support must be available to assist with legal fees for individual complaints.

Sixth, we recommend that the proposed Canadian accessibility standards development organization, CASDO, include a minimum of two-thirds of deaf people and people with disabilities on its board, staff, executives and committees.

Seventh, we recommend that any entity that receives funding from the federal Government of Canada comply with federal accessibility standards and regulations.

Eighth, Bill C-81 must be provided with sufficient and permanent funding to enable people with disabilities and organizations of people with disabilities, including deaf people, to achieve significant advances in accessibility and inclusion in all federal jurisdictions.

Ninth, we recommend that the legislation must mandate the use of comprehensive annual performance reports conducted by the chief accessibility officer based on outcomes achieved.

Finally, we recommend that legislation create, develop and support programs that improve the employment and prospects of people with disabilities and deaf people in Canada.

Our materials include several more recommendations to address other important accessibility issues, for an inclusive, accessible Canada that includes 3.5 million deaf, blind and hard-of-hearing Canadians, to ensure that they have equal rights to participate in Canadian society. It will allow Canada to better meet its human rights obligations under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities.

We would be pleased to answer your questions.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much.

Now, for the next seven minutes, from the Saskatchewan Human Rights Commission, we have Mr. David Arnot, chief commissioner, coming to us via video conference.

[David Arnot]

It's my sincere honour and pleasure to appear before this esteemed committee this morning.

Thank you, Chair, Mr. May, for giving me the opportunity to make this presentation.

The Conference Board of Canada estimates that by 2036 one in five Canadians will have a disability. This is not surprising, considering our demographics are changing. We're all getting older. The boomers cohort, of which I am a member, is getting older; they have expectations, they have wealth, they are vocal, and they need and expect accessibility.

Human rights commissions are at the front lines of dealing with the business, social and individual impact of not accommodating people with disabilities. Last year more than 57% of the complaints that came to the human rights commission in Saskatchewan were disability-related, and fully one-third of those complaints were disability in the area of employment.

In 2015, a study conducted by the Canadian Human Rights Commission in collaboration with the Canadian Association of Statutory Human Rights Agencies, CASHRA, representing all the human rights commissions in Canada, found remarkable consistency with this negative statistic. Almost half of all human rights complaints in Canada in these jurisdictions between the years 2009 and 2013 were disability-related.

Canadians with disabilities experience systemic discrimination and inconsistency in the built environment, employment and access to services within and across all jurisdictions. Canadians with disabilities deserve a systemic response to systemic discrimination. That response must be common, consistent and continuous. In my view, it must use restorative justice principles to create a restored relationship in a positive way.

If I draw a criticism of Bill C-81—and it is really a reminder more than it is a criticism—it is that we must remind ourselves of the intersectionality facing individuals with disabilities. Particularly, number one, women with disabilities, children with disabilities and indigenous people with disabilities are disproportionately impacted. I am mindful that governments are working to support these groups I've just identified, but I think leadership is required, and existing good governance through legislation enables the federal government to take up that leadership role. It's very necessary in this country. The government, the minister and this legislation have the capacity, in my opinion, to leverage change through strategic use of grants and with the sharing of best practices through, for instance, a federal-provincial-territorial table in the future.

In the present, Bill C-81 is significant because, first, it is a first strong effort to provide consistency to the rubric of accessibility in our country and because there is a strong business case for greater accessibility. There is a moral as well as a demographic urgency for doing so, because people with disabilities are the largest minority group in Canada that anyone can join. They deserve consideration.

Let me take you through these points.

First, let us consider the need for a consistent rubric for accessibility. Our country has a national building code and CSA standards that set out minimum standards for accessibility, and some provinces and many municipalities have moved well beyond those standards. All provinces have human rights codes or acts, and they are considered quasi-constitutional, meaning there is a paramountcy to that legislation. That legislation in each province and territory trumps or is paramount over any other legislation, meaning that all acts must comply with the human rights code.

The courts have stated that building codes and human rights codes are, in many cases, complementary. They work together to provide accessibility. Because their quasi-constitutionality is very important, human rights codes trump building codes. Putting people first before systems, as human rights codes do, makes very good sense.

I say this to emphasize that connecting the proposed legislation, Bill C-81, to the Canadian Human Rights Act makes sense at this point. First, it puts people first, before some significant, complex and powerful systems. Second, the bill represents a significant step in our country's evolution concerning disability rights. I use the word “evolution” on purpose, because positive change comes in increments, and I believe we can learn in Canada from the American experience in this regard.

Chai Feldblum, one of the architects of the Americans with Disabilities Act, told me that she and others faced push-back and uncertainty at the time that legislation came into force in the United States. What we can learn from that is, first, there is likely to be some controversy with this introduction, and second, there's likely to be litigation, but frankly, that is to be embraced.

Up front, Bill C-81 contemplates the need to resolve competing interests in a considerate way. Human rights commissions in Canada deal with balancing those interests on a daily basis. It's nothing to fear. It's part of our business, and I think it's done very well.

When I was given the opportunity to comment on the path forward during the consultation process, I suggested that the accessibility commissioner should have a statutory right to intervene in matters that involve accessibility issues that are not before the accessibility commissioner or the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal—in other words, issues that are before other administrative tribunals that have jurisdiction on accessibility issues. By “intervention” I mean that the accessibility commissioner should have the right to bring evidence and to bring legal argument at those other places, those other administrative tribunals.

I also suggested that the accessibility commissioner should have a statutory right to launch a systemic complaint in matters that involve accessibility issues. That is an efficient way to resolve disability issues, in my opinion, because it provides resolution for a large cohort of individuals, as opposed to a one-off situation. It provides an opportunity, for example, to deal with issues for all Canadians who are blind or partially sighted or all Canadians who are deaf or hard of hearing. What it would bring is a certainty, a consistency and a uniformity to all rulings with respect to accessibility that come from administrative tribunals in the federal context.

I reflect for a moment on the consultation process that was used to inform Bill C-81. I think it's worth remembering that the process excited the imaginations of people with disabilities in this country. It raised expectations. It dealt with a sea of frustration and emotions and the marginalization that people with disabilities have had in this country for 50 years or longer. It also excited the imaginations of those who advocate on behalf of people with disabilities. There was a sense that things could change, that things would change. This represented an incredible opportunity to make long-needed change and to have much-needed recognition.

In recognizing that Bill C-81 has fundamental application to significant areas of life for people with disabilities—I'm thinking about the federal jurisdiction in transportation, communications and banking—we must also recognize that there is a strong business case for accessibility. The Conference Board of Canada suggests that getting accessibility correct in the workplace could have a positive $16.8-billion impact on the Canadian economy. In 2013, the panel on labour market opportunities for persons with disability reported that despite an aging population and a looming skills shortage, this significant talent pool of persons with disability is being overlooked.

Now let's look at the intersection of the business case and the moral imperative.

Bill C-81 is proposing a framework from which to discuss disability and accessibility. It recognizes the need to create and apply standards to deal with a social reality. At the same time, it implies a business cost—buildings, spaces and services require resources—yet it also implies that the needs of an often unconsidered yet growing cohort need to be given top priority.

The creation of best practice standards will inform the practices in all jurisdictions.

In my experience in accommodating disability, I have found that human rights commissions and the courts aim to resolve inaccessibility based on what is reasonable and the best practice. Fundamentally, I am saying it will be difficult to ignore the existence of well-reasoned research and well-reasoned arguments on accessibility standards, particularly when those standards have application throughout Canada.

I believe that human rights commissions, labour standards, and health and safety organizations will regard Bill C-81, the work of the Canadian Accessibility Standards Development Organization and the work of the accessibility commissioner as giving significant guidance to the work those agencies are currently doing on the ground, on the front line, in provinces and territories. There's a significant political and economic influence, then, that will be available through the wise actions of the incumbent accessibility commissioner.

It has been said that disability is “the last bastion of prejudice”. Bill C-81 offers a substantial support against that notion. It affirms and supplies teeth to the notion that people with disabilities deserve equal moral consideration.

Bill C-81 in part legislates the equal moral consideration contemplated in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities.

Article 9 of the CRPD requires Canada to identify and eliminate obstacles and barriers for persons with disability. Bill C-81 partially meets the obligation of these commitments, and it amplifies the need for equality, fairness, equity and the respect for human dignity that exists in all human rights acts and codes in this country.

Fundamentally, accessibility is crucial to the inclusion of citizens with disabilities in the social, cultural and economic life of our country. Increasing accessibility in buildings, businesses, and the public and community spaces we all use makes good sense from a business perspective. It is also a best practice for inclusion of people with disabilities, so that all people in Canada are able to participate to the fullest extent in the life of Canada.

We need a barrier-free Canada. We need legislation to ensure a barrier-free Canada and to eliminate these barriers faced by people with disabilities currently. I believe the legislation is a significant and bold step for a better future for Canadians with disabilities.

Thank you for allowing me to make this presentation to you this morning, and for your time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much, sir.

We are going to get started right away with questions.

This is just a reminder to my colleagues that we have a very hard stop at 10 o'clock, as we need to be in our seats shortly thereafter.

First up is MP Diotte.

[Kerry Diotte, Edmonton Griesbach, CPC]

Thank you, and thank you to both of you for coming here to try to shed some light on something.

As an able-bodied person, I'm always interested in real-life examples of what specific issues or day-to-day challenges people with disabilities have, because that's what we want to get to through all the bureaucratic talk and the legalese.

Starting with Mr. Folino, I'm wondering if you could describe some of the day-to-day challenges faced by people with visual impairment, and those with deaf impairment as well. I'd like you to give a specific example, so that the average person who does not suffer impairment can better understand.