Human Resources Committee on Jan. 31st, 2022

[The Chair (Mr. Robert Morrissey (Egmont, Lib.)), Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number five of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. Proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. So you are aware, the webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entirety of the committee.

Given the ongoing pandemic situation and in light of the recommendations from health authorities, as well as the directive of the Board of Internal Economy on October 19, 2021, to remain healthy and safe, all those attending the meeting in person are to maintain two-metre physical distancing, wear non-medical masks when circulating in the room and maintain proper hand hygiene by using the provided sanitizer at the room entrance. It is highly recommended that masks be worn at all times, including when seated.

As the chair, I will be enforcing these measures for the duration of the meeting. I thank members in advance for their co-operation.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline a few rules to follow. Members and witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of floor, English or French. If interpretation is lost, please inform me immediately and we will ensure interpretation is properly restored before resuming the proceedings. The “raise hand” feature at the bottom of the screen can be used at any time if you wish to speak or to alert the chair.

For members participating in the room, proceed as you usually would when the whole committee is meeting in person in a committee room. Keep in mind the Board of Internal Economy's guidelines for mask use and health protocols.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you are on the video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself. For those in the room, your microphone will be controlled as is normal by the proceedings and verifications officer. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, your microphone should be on mute.

As a reminder, all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair. With regard to a speaking list, the committee clerk and I will do the best we can to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members, whether they are participating virtually or in person.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Friday, January 28, 2022, the committee will commence its study of service standards for employment insurance claims.

I would like to welcome our witnesses to begin our discussion with five minutes of opening remarks followed by questions.

From the Department of Employment and Social Development, we have Cliff Groen, senior assistant deputy minister; Mary Crescenzi, assistant deputy minister; Lori MacDonald, senior associate deputy minister; Elisha Ram, associate assistant deputy minister; and Peter Littlefield, chief information officer. I want to thank the witnesses for being able to appear on short notice.

We will start with Lori MacDonald, for five minutes, please. Following the opening statement, I will open the floor to questions.

Ms. MacDonald, you have the floor.

[Lori MacDonald, Senior Associate Deputy Minister, Employment and Social Development and Chief Operating Officer for Service Canada, Department of Employment and Social Development]

Good morning, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for the opportunity to appear before the committee today.

At the outset, I will say that we recognize the difficulties that any delay in the payment of benefits can cause to claimants and their families. This has been a difficult time, as the COVID‑19 pandemic continues to have an impact on our communities, including economic impacts and job losses. Many Canadians relay on employment insurance to help get through these times, and time can be of the essence for them.

Despite an increase in EI claims over the pandemic, Service Canada processes the vast majority of claims efficiently and within the service standard. In the past year, Service Canada has exceeded the 80% service delivery target, with a rate of 88% processed within four weeks. The vast majority of the remaining 12% of files are completed within the following two weeks. Unfortunately, sometimes complex claims take more than six weeks.

This is typically Service Canada's busiest time of the year, due to the winter peak of EI claims. That, and an unfortunate recent surge in EI claims due to omicron, has caused some delays in the processing of EI applications. In fact, for the first four weeks of this year, EI claims were 35% higher than forecast. While the height of the peak period is starting to decline, some service delivery delays are expected to continue throughout the month of February.

To deal with the unprecedented volume of EI applications since the beginning of the pandemic, the government has invested an additional $825 million to increase Service Canada's capacity. These investments have made a tremendous difference. Since September 2020, Service Canada has paid over 4.4 million beneficiaries a total of $56 billion in EI benefits. Despite these record volumes, 88% of applicants have been paid within the four-week, or 28-day, service standard.

Furthermore, the capacity of the EI call centre has nearly tripled, from approximately 1,100 officers prior to the pandemic to nearly 3,000 officers by the end of March 2021. Our EI call centre officers are on track to answer more than seven million calls by March 31, 2022. Despite this high volume, there have been peaks where clients have experienced longer wait times. However, from April 1, 2021 to January 2022, the average wait time was 18.6 minutes.

That said, Mr. Chair, we are acutely aware that delays in processing applications can cause hardship to claimants and their families. We are prioritizing cases of urgent need, especially situations where claimants have no income. No claimant will lose benefits because of a processing delay.

We have reviewed and we will continue to actively review our internal workforce strategies to help us better meet the challenges of the influx of claims due to the pandemic, including both mobilizing thousands of staff across business lines to help with the delivery of EI and hiring new staff throughout this period. We are also pursuing additional ways to streamline claims processing. We have online resources to guide claimants through the process, and Service Canada has proactively reached out to the employer community to reinforce the importance of issuing records of employment in a timely manner.

Service Canada takes the integrity of its programs seriously, but the COVID-19 pandemic has taught us that in a time of crisis, there is an increased risk of fraud. From the outset of the pandemic, Service Canada has been actively detecting and preventing fraud in its programs. This week, we are finalizing our rollout of enhanced resources in our call centre to help clients whose legitimate claims were delayed or interrupted because of identity theft.

We are also implementing measures to validate the identity of clients more quickly and get benefits to them sooner. To combat the fraudsters who cause financial and emotional harm to innocent Canadians, we are constantly enhancing and prioritizing the security of our benefit programs. In 2020, the government announced it would spend $68.1 million over four years on departmental initiatives to protect the integrity of benefit programs. Further, we have more than 1,200 investigators in all regions across Canada dedicated to preventing, detecting and addressing fraud, error and abuse in the EI program. We are also significantly increasing the number of investigators dedicated to quickly resolving these cases.

In conclusion, Service Canada will continue to work hard every day to get Canadians their benefits in a timely manner.

I will be happy to answer any questions. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. MacDonald.

I will now open the floor for questions. For the first round of six minutes, we have Mrs. Kusie.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you very much.

First of all, thank you very much to the witnesses for coming here today for this important issue. In fact, my team felt that it was very important. There are certainly Canadians across the country who are suffering significantly as a result of this problem—not only on one account, but on two accounts, the first one being that they were victims of fraud. I'm certain that we've all known about this problem. It has existed within our country for some time, and this is another example of it. Second, unfortunately, due to the delays, some of these accounts were frozen, so these individuals, in addition to not having received their money, couldn't even hope for it in a reasonable time frame.

For my team, it was very important to get the two ministers here, but for some reason the Liberals, supported by the NDP members—who claim they care very much about their constituents and about the highest level of accountability and solving this problem—worked together and colluded together. I know the Prime Minister has talked about not having an obstructionist agenda, but in fact the Conservative Party, which I represent, received a majority of Canadian votes. When the other groups are working together, they're actually working against the majority of Canadian voters.

I would like to ask Ms. MacDonald, why does she believe that the Liberal government, supported by the New Democratic Party, did not want the ministers to appear today? Why does she think that these two parties, working together against those who were victims both of the system and of fraud, did not want the ministers here today?

[Lori MacDonald]

Mr. Chair, we are happy to be here at the invitation of the committee and further to the motion passed by the committee last week. We are happy to answer any questions the honourable members may have for us today.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

That really didn't answer my question.

Why do you think they didn't want the ministers here today? Do you think the ministers understand this issue? Do you think that they have the capacity to understand this issue and that they are aware of all the particularities around this issue, Ms. MacDonald?

[Lori MacDonald]

We actively work with ministers, often on a weekly basis, providing the information in terms of the status of our EI processing, and in fact all the processing across the systems.

On a weekly basis, the minister challenges us to make sure we are serving Canadians to the best of our ability, in the most effective and efficient way. This includes looking at additional resources, streamlining our processes, using analytics to further enhance the processes we're using, and realigning staff and resources as necessary to take on any delays that we see in the system and to ensure that people are getting their benefits in a timely fashion.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

That may be so, Ms. MacDonald, but still they—through their team here—decided not to be here today.

Do you think the ministers understand the gravity of this situation, that there are people in this pandemic who have been victims of fraud, first of all, but who also need their benefits at the most dire of times, Ms. MacDonald?

[Lori MacDonald]

I can reassure the committee members that, in fact, the ministers are seized with this issue. We talk about it on a weekly basis. We talk about fraud-related issues and operational impact issues. The minister challenges us on an ongoing basis to ensure that we're doing everything we can to decrease delays, to look at processing efficiencies, and to understand the pain points in the system that actually impact individual clients on a day-to-day basis. We continue to provide those updates, and we continue to look at measures to improve those services.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

They're seized with this issue, and yet they, through their team, made the decision not to be here today to be accountable for that, so—

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Mr. Chair, on a point of order, please, this line of questioning is extremely unfair to officials. That's number one. Number two, this is an important issue that we're all seized with. We have officials here. We're trying to get answers from the officials with regard to challenges that are in the system.

You know, I would also remind the member that they lost a seat in the last election. They lost a seat. They went backwards, not us, and—

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

We actually gained four in your region, Mr. Long.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Chair—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Mr. Long and Mrs. Kusie, we'll stick to questions on the motion.

Ms. MacDonald, go ahead.

[Lori MacDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Chairperson.

As I indicated, we meet with the ministers on a weekly basis. We provide updates in terms of our processing efficiencies.

I just want to restate my opening comments that we are currently processing our EI claims above the current process standard of 80% for the cycle. In fact, we are processing at 88% for the entire year. We continue to look for efficiencies in that regard. The vast majority of our claims are done and completed in the appropriate time of four weeks, about 88%, and of the 12%, the majority are processed within six weeks.

There are claims, though, that are very complex. There are claims that—

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Okay, but, Ms. MacDonald, you said that the ministers were seized with this issue. Did they come to you? I've worked in a minister's office. I've worked in the public service.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Mrs. Kusie, that's your six minutes—

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

No, it's not. I'm at 5:48. The point of order took time out.

I would actually like the clerk to verify that, please.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Madam Clerk?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Danielle Widmer]

I'm at 6:02 right now.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

How can that be, considering Mr. Long had a point of order in the middle of that and I've been...?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Okay, Mrs. Kusie. Continue with your question and conclude it, please.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you.

Ms. MacDonald, they say they're seized with issues. I want to know, did they come to you and give you a specific directive as to this issue specifically? I've worked in a minister's office. I've also worked as a public servant. I want to know if the ministers themselves came and gave this directive to you to solve this problem as soon as possible, gave you a time frame, and as well had you ensure that this will not happen again.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mrs. Kusie. Your time has concluded.

We'll move to Mr. Collins for six minutes.

Mr. Collins, go ahead.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chairman.

First and foremost, I think we should thank Madame Chabot again for raising this issue. We all know that government supports, irrespective of what level of government provides them, are important for people, whether they're on a temporary basis or a permanent basis. The fact that this is our first study is important, I think, and we should thank Madame Chabot again for bringing it forward.

Based on the last line of questioning, we should remind everyone that it wasn't unanimous to get us here today. There were two parties, actually, that supported the motion on Friday—the Liberals and the NDP. We see it as a priority, and my line of questioning will certainly get at that.

Through you, Mr. Chairman, to the witnesses—whoever chooses to answer—how has staff transitioned the delivery of EI services to clients during the pandemic, and how has that impacted the delivery of service over the last two years?