Human Resources Committee on April 21st, 2023

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

If you support income splitting, do you have any concerns that a policy like that would benefit the wealthiest of Canadians, when the concern—certainly in this committee—is access through a system that would help low-income families?

[Peter Jon Mitchell]

I'm not aware that income splitting is on the table. In fact, I think it was repealed a long time ago.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

I'm asking about your contemplation on that for your organization.

[Peter Jon Mitchell]

I support income splitting, because I think it helps families.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Okay, I understand.

I'll just move on, if I may....

You know, I've had some time to read your organization's documents. Your organization said that the government's support for child care means that parents who stay at home are “paying to care for their own kids—and everyone else's.” Does your organization feel that parents like those who are actually accessing what we call CWELCC are taking advantage of other parents?

[Peter Jon Mitchell]

I think what we're saying is that everyone pays into the system, but few actually benefit from the system.

We know that it serves, I think I said in my presentation about one-third of kids under the age of six, so what we're advocating for are policies and positions that would help a wider range of families.

I would prefer to see money go to parents. I like the Canada child benefit. I think it's a good program that could be expanded upon, and it's geared to income. We could certainly continue to target funds towards children under six. I think this would be a fairer way of treating families, and it certainly would help families of lower income, because it is geared to income.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

We can appreciate the benefits of the child care benefit in terms of assisting families and lifting children out of poverty. As a matter of fact, it has impacted hundreds of thousands of children, lifting them out of poverty across the country. That is something the government committed itself to. That doesn't take away from the fact that we are building a nationwide system for families to be able to access high-quality, educational child care for their children.

Are you suggesting, then, that after years of tax credits, your organization is advocating tax credits as a solution to this child care issue, rather than building a system that allows children to be well educated, socialized and part of a community to get the best start in life?

[Peter Jon Mitchell]

The reality is that Canadian families use diverse care forms to meet their needs, and those forms often change over time as their care needs change.

The program, as it is being implemented, will not serve the majority of Canadians, and I have grave concerns that it will be unable to meet its space creation goals. I think it's largely underfunded and extremely complex.

Because child care is a provincial issue, there are great complexities across the country. There are different programs and different ways that provinces are tackling child care, and I think a one-size-fits-all solution is not the way to go.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

I appreciate that. Thank you.

However—this will be a yes or no, Chair—there weren't enough spaces before this program started, and parents couldn't afford child care. Now we're building a system to create spaces and make it affordable.

Would you suggest that we go back to tax credits instead, yes or no?

[Peter Jon Mitchell]

I would say that provinces—

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

I'm asking for a yes-or-no answer.

[Peter Jon Mitchell]

Provinces already funded spaces and were already creating spaces every year.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Mitchell.

Ms. Saks, your time has gone over a bit.

Ms. Bérubé, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like the to thank the witnesses for being here. Bill C-35 is very important for our children.

Mr. Lacasse, I enjoyed your fine presentation on first nations, the Inuit and the Métis. I'd like to know what the current relationship is between Quebec's ministère de la Famille and the communities. In addition, what sort of agreement is there on the delegation of powers between the First Nations of Quebec and Labrador Health and Social Services Commission and the ministère de la Famille?

[Patrice Lacasse]

Thank you, Ms. Bérubé.

The relationship between the ministère de la Famille and the communities has been established through funding for the various types of child care services. I would say that the relationship is mainly based on respect for standards. Child care operations and administration are conditioned or subject to an act and several regulations. So it's a financial and accountability relationship.

As for the commission's accountability to the ministère de la Famille, an agreement was signed in 2015 to help the communities respond to the difficulties in obtaining effective mentoring that would be useful to them. The agreement concerns licence management and compliance.

We are also going to adopt a mentoring approach for the various child care services. It will not be coercive, but it will provide more support and guidance so that services, administration and pedagogical aspects, which are extremely important, can be improved. No one really wants child care services that simply keep children busy. We want places where children can develop, be stimulated, and build their identity. The same is true of compliance, where our approach focuses more on improving administration and management. The financial aspects will have to be worked out soon. We're not responsible for that, but we can support the communities.

I'd like to point out that last year, a new section 121.1 was added to Quebec's Educational Childcare Act. This new section will not solve every problem, but it acknowledges the possibility of signing agreements with each of the communities to adapt the act to the realities of the first nations. This will of course depend on the will of the government.

I should also point out that when we talk about accountability and links with the communities, it's about more than child care services. In 2017, as part of the work on indigenous early learning and child care programs, the IELCCs, national consultations were held on the development of an indigenous IELCC framework. The comprehensive vision of the first nations and indigenous peoples was included in the regional report. In short, our vision is more comprehensive—some might call it holistic—and focused on the fact that in the communities, the top priority of first nations families is children.

Parents and extended families also need to make an effort and contribute to help child care services do their work effectively. The importance of language and cultures—and I'm using the plural because first nations, and indigenous peoples, are not a monolithic block—means that specific solutions are needed for each. The educational approaches developed have to be culturally safe so that children and families can thrive in a healthy and safe community.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

I represent the Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou riding in northern Quebec and I'm aware of the progress that has been made in indigenous communities like mine. I'm thinking among other things of the indigenous friendship centre in Val-d'Or, which has a child care centre. That's one good example, but I'd like you to tell us more about the other remote regions. How does your commission go about its work?

[Patrice Lacasse]

We provide support as best we can with the limited resources at our disposal.

For at least 10 years now, we have been pointing to studies showing higher costs in indigenous communities. One example is Matimekush. Some studies done with Université Laval showed that construction costs were 65% to 100% higher. So it will cost a lot more to build a child care centre.

Then there are food costs. Just recently, a child care services counsellor who went to an indigenous community told me that it was unbelievable. Strictly from the cost standpoint, food is inaccessible, not to mention the impact of transportation on quality. All these factors put pressure on human resources, and some communities have been forced to adjust their daily fees because…

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Lacasse and Ms. Bérubé.

Ms. Gazan, you have six minutes and probably a little more, because you were cut short at the other meeting.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much.

My first question is for Monsieur Lacasse.

You spoke about the importance of self-determination in regard to children, and I actually could not agree more. In particular, with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, we know that the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples is mentioned 15 times. Central to that is self-determination.

I share that with you because I think that on matters related to children it's critical that indigenous people have free, prior and informed consent, particularly because of history, but also because of ongoing issues around having self-determination over our children. In fact, we just had a case in Manitoba that ended up on the news yesterday.

In your submission, you said that Bill C-35 could be improved by recognizing the right to self-determination of indigenous people and how it should contribute to the implementation of the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People by affirming first nations jurisdiction over child care services.

The NDP is putting forward an amendment to strengthen the bill: that under clause 6 it be amended so that it's “programs and services that are culturally appropriate, that are led by indigenous people and that respect the right of indigenous people to free, prior and informed consent in matters relating to children.”

Do you think that's an important amendment?

[Patrice Lacasse]

It's hard for me to take a position. Your line of argument looks all right, but then I'm just a generalist manager. I'd have to ask our colleagues in the legal department. However, to me, it looks more positive than anything else.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Could you please submit that?

I would like you to follow up on that. If you could submit that to the committee, that would be very helpful.

Thank you so much. As well, we can send you the amendment.

[Patrice Lacasse]

I'll do that today.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

That's no problem.

My next question is for Madam Deazeley.

You spoke about quality child care. You know, I think, that I often brag that I am a former ECE. I spent many years as an early childhood educator, early on.

One of the things that really disturb me about early childhood education is that people often think it's babysitting. It's not. They're actual educational facilities, where you're teaching critical skills, including things like pre-reading skills for kids even prior to entering school. You spoke about the workforce and how research has shown how qualified and accountable educators “are the most significant contributors to early years programs” and result in “better outcomes for children and families”. It's a critical part of education.

What are some of the risks to children, families and staff if they fail to properly support early childhood educators, including in areas like wages, benefits and working conditions? I agree with you: I think it's important that we open up spaces, but it can't be at the expense of providing children with high-quality education. Can you please expand on that?

Thank you.

[Beth Deazeley]

As you've said really well, early childhood educators are professional educators. They have a body of knowledge that they get through post-secondary education. They have expertise in pedagogy, in child development, in creating safe and inclusive learning environments, in documentation, in assessing progress and in working with children and families.

One of the unique things about this profession is that it is relationship-based. The reason that educators are the greatest single contributor to the quality of the program is that the relationship the children have with the educators they spend their day with has the greatest impact on the outcomes for them. The concern is that there is a clear link between the well-being of those educators and the well-being of the children in their care, because what the research also shows across professions is that the quality of the working environment and the supports available to professionals in their practice directly impact the quality of the services they're able to provide. They also impact the length of time people stay in a given profession.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I would like to agree with that. I actually became a teacher, and one of the reasons I left the profession was that there were no holidays, the pay was lousy, and the respect for the profession has not, I think, really changed, yet I was still required to do the same things as a teacher—lesson plans and curriculum plans for the kids I was teaching at the time.

You mentioned in your remarks that Ontario is facing a workforce crisis in child care, and you note the high numbers of people who are entering the profession and then leaving. You spoke about the importance of retention. We can focus on expanding and training, but we need to focus on retention. What would that look like?