Evidence of meeting #13 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was job.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Jessica Fancy-Landry Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Awesome. Thank you so much for that.
This leads me to my next question. It's about job quality versus job quantity. When employers say there's a labour shortage, we also hear from youth that available jobs might not provide livable wages or stable hours. How should federal youth employment programs balance job creation with job quality?
Chief Economist, The Canadian SHIELD Institute
We need both, especially right now.
Professor Fortin has covered what's happening with the American policies that are shifting what's happening in Canada right now. That's been covered already in this meeting quite substantially. We need job creation, and we need that job creation to be high-quality jobs so that people have the opportunities that lead to life satisfaction and to being able to create the life they're looking for. It also leads to higher productivity in our economy and then helps our economy grow. If we're looking at only low-wage jobs all the time, then we're just looking at the lowest possible growth and productivity gains that we could have, or even declining productivity. I would say it's not an either-or question. We need both.
Inside of that, what about looking at policies that improve stability in jobs? I'm thinking about fair scheduling rules, for example. If you do need to have two jobs in order to make ends meet, you can actually schedule between those two, the way you can also schedule your social life, pick up your kids from school and do those sorts of things. As well, different provinces have varying degrees of minimum wage. What does it mean to provide and ensure that workers in each province actually have enough money to thrive in the economy?
We need to be looking, right now, at boosting our economy from Canada first. If we don't create jobs that actually allow for that economic growth, we're not going to counteract what's happening in the U.S. right now.
Liberal
Jessica Fancy-Landry Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Nice.
We have about 30 seconds left, and I would be remiss if I didn't talk about rural youth retention.
Where I'm from, we're a predominantly rural community. You talked about keeping our kids first, or Canadians first. In terms of keeping our youth and our kiddos first, what role do local employers and community organizations play in helping young people see a future in their communities? How can we as the federal government support these types of partnerships to keep our kids home?
Chief Economist, The Canadian SHIELD Institute
I would go back to this idea of looking at assessing what skills you have, even if you don't have the credentials to prove it. That means building systems that can help a municipal government or rural employer or someone in an urban area actually understand what an individual worker is qualified to do and match them with the job that's there.
Liberal
Jessica Fancy-Landry Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
If you have anything else to add, please feel free to give us a written response after this.
Thank you.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Thank you, Ms. Fancy.
Professor Fortin, you had your hand up, but it is the member's time. It's left to them to recognize you or not.
This concludes the first hour.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
I have a point of order, Chair.
Witnesses can follow up in writing as well. If they run out of time and they have something to add, they can follow up that way as well.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Yes. They all have the option to do that.
That includes you, Professor Fortin.
With that, we'll suspend while we move to the second hour of witness testimony.
Thank you to the witnesses who appeared this morning.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Committee members, we are ready to resume the second hour of this committee meeting.
I would like to make a few comments to the witnesses appearing.
Please wait until I recognize you by name before you speak. You have the option of participating in this meeting in the official language of your choice by clicking on the globe icon at the bottom of your screen, and you can choose your language. If there's an interruption in the translation services, please use the “raise hand” icon to get my attention, and we will suspend while it is being corrected.
For those in the room, members, I went through the additional comments.
Please speak slowly and clearly for the benefit of the translators.
Each witness has five minutes for their opening comments. When you're at five minutes or a little over, I will thank you, at which time I would ask you to wrap up as quickly as you can.
We have, appearing as an individual, David Binger, care advocate and graduate student, counselling psychology. From the United Association Canada, we have Michael Gordon, director of Canadian training.
We will begin with Mr. Binger for five minutes, please.
Mr. Binger, you have the floor.
David Binger Care Advocate and Graduate Student, Counselling Psychology, As an Individual
Good morning and thank you for the opportunity to speak today.
My name is David Binger. I’m completing my Master of Arts in counselling psychology at Yorkville University. I grew up in Ontario’s group home system. Much of my work focuses on how systemic failures in child welfare directly shape education, employment and mental health outcomes for people from care. Most of the evidence I'll reference today comes from Ontario as that's where I both grew up and conducted most of my research. Still, these patterns reflect structural issues seen across Canada.
In Ontario, research shows that the vast majority of youth leaving care, often cited to be as high as 90%, rely on social assistance within months of aging out. Those who do find work are typically in low-wage, insecure positions, reflecting barriers that begin long before adulthood. Over a lifetime, people from care earn roughly $326,000 less than their peers, reflecting the cumulative impact of disrupted education, placement instability, unregulated and undertrained staff, neglect and unresolved trauma.
These outcomes are not the result of individual failure, but of systemic design. If we want to improve youth employment for people from care, we must address the structures that shape their beginnings.
My remarks today focus on four upstream areas that urgently need reform: the lack of professional regulation and oversight in care; the harmful effects of privatization and profit incentives; inadequate educational and post-care supports; and the absence of standardized national data to guide evidence-based policy.
On regulation and oversight, in Ontario, the people responsible for caring for vulnerable youth, including group home staff and children’s aid society workers, are not required to be professionally regulated through any recognized college. Section 38 of Ontario’s Child, Youth and Family Services Act requires that every CAS appoint a “local director with the prescribed qualifications [and] powers”, but it does not require that director or anyone else in the organization to hold registration with a professional regulatory body such as the Ontario College of Social Workers and Social Service Workers.
When a complaint is filed against a CAS, it must first go through the agency’s own internal review, meaning the organization investigates itself. Only limited types of complaints can proceed to the Child and Family Services Review Board, which often refers matters back to the same CAS for resolution. This keeps accountability largely internal rather than independent, creating an inherent conflict of interest and eroding public trust.
Beyond regulation, there must also be greater emphasis on psychological and clinical expertise in group home management. Our administrative oversight has proven inadequate for youth whose needs are psychological, not procedural. Complex trauma cannot be managed just through case files; it requires regulated clinicians capable of guiding therapeutic intervention and stability planning. Group homes should be managed by clinical directors—professionals with counselling and psychology backgrounds who can guide trauma-informed practice and ensure that interventions are evidence-based.
A parent outside the system would not rely solely on a caseworker to address a child’s serious emotional distress. They would seek a clinician. Youth in care deserve that same level of professional guidance. Embedding clinical leadership within group homes would greatly improve outcomes and reduce the long-term social and economic costs of unaddressed trauma and systemic neglect.
Outcomes for people from care have always been horrendous, with low graduation rates, chronic poverty and overrepresentation in homelessness and incarceration. Privatization has made these outcomes worse. In 2024, Global News reported in the article “Indigenous kids allegedly called ‘cash cows’ of Ontario’s child-welfare system”, that private operators profit from per diem contracts rewarding occupancy over outcomes.
Peterborough Currents and the Ontario ombudsman have reported that unlicensed and privately run group homes are increasingly used despite evidence of poor outcomes and soaring costs, with some unlicensed homes charging up to $60,000 per child per month, which demonstrates how privatization has failed to deliver either fiscal efficiency or safe, consistent care.
The UN guidelines for the alternative care of children, which interpret Canada’s obligations under the Convention on the Rights of the Child, state that care must never be provided for religious, economic or political gain, yet Ontario’s funding model still ties payments to head counts and per diem rates, undermining both these principles and Canada’s international commitment to uphold them.
A 2021 analysis by Rampersaud and Mussell found that each annual Ontario cohort of roughly 500 youth aging out of care generates between $394 million and $1.05 billion in lifetime public costs, driven by lost earnings, reduced tax contributions and chronic, revolving reliance on social assistance, housing, health and justice services.
Education is the strongest predictor of stable employment and independence, yet Ontario’s living and learning grant bases eligibility solely on a person from care’s age at the start of the study period, cutting off support entirely for anyone from care who begins post-secondary education after 26. Research consistently shows that youth from care reach independence later due to trauma, disrupted education and delayed developmental readiness. Policies that impose rigid, arbitrary age cut-offs push them into post-secondary education before they're developmentally prepared and withdraw support before they've had a fair chance to succeed.
With roughly 500 youth aging out each year, Ontario alone has added roughly $3.9 billion to $10.5 billion in lifetime public costs over the last 10 years, and $7.9 billion to $21 billion over 20 years, purely from stacking cohorts. That's the scale of avoidable loss we could redirect into proven supports. Redirecting even a fraction toward wraparound education, housing, and mental health supports would increase overall outcomes and the labour market. Education isn't charity; it's infrastructure.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Thank you, Mr. Binger.
For the benefit of the committee, are you the person who reached out to me about this study?
Care Advocate and Graduate Student, Counselling Psychology, As an Individual
Yes, I am.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Thank you.
Committee members, Mr. Binger reached out to me about the fact that the people who grow up under foster care are often overlooked and that the committee was not considering this. I discussed it with him at length and asked him if he would consider appearing before the committee to put this on the record and to get this perspective. He was a bit reluctant, but finally agreed. His testimony will be extremely important to this committee.
Thank you, Mr. Binger, for appearing. We will go to questions once we conclude with Mr. Gordon.
Mr. Gordon, you have five minutes.
Michael Gordon Director of Canadian Training, United Association Canada
Good morning, Chair and members of the committee.
My name is Mike Gordon. I serve as national director for training for United Association Canada. That's piping professionals from across the country.
We represent more than 62,000 skilled trades professionals and apprentices across ten Red Seal trades, supported by 33 training centres nationwide. Our network delivers nationally recognized industry-driven apprenticeship programs that put Canadians to work in stable, high-demand and future-ready careers. We look to lead through example in an appropriate context. It's noteworthy that I hold several Red Seal qualifications.
For context, youth employment in Canada, as we know, has reached a 25-year low, while skilled trades shortages are at record highs. We have a fix here.
Budget 2025 and the Canadian Sustainable Jobs Act outline major federal commitments to empower workers and create high-paying careers. Apprenticeship is a proven, evidence-based solution to connect youth to meaningful, well-payed and, most importantly, sustainable work. We have an immediate opportunity to align these commitments with practical apprenticeship investments that deliver measurable results.
I've broken my short presentation into key topics.
The first topic is promoting apprenticeship. Events such as those held by Skills Canada, where the United Association is a key presenting sponsor, show young Canadians exactly what's possible through hands-on, technical and team-based careers. These events align with the federal goal to empower workers and should be integrated into youth employment and sustainable job strategies nationwide.
The second topic is strengthening apprenticeship outcomes. We have a few things to look at. First, there is tracking the success of pre-entry programs. The single most important measure of success is how many preapprenticeship graduates progress to registered apprenticeship. Apprentices are assigned a registry number upon signing a contract. These numbers should be linked to any pre-entry participant so that we can accurately gauge program success. Government funding should align with programs that show evidence-based results, which means registered apprentices. This must be built into the Canadian apprenticeship strategy to evaluate federal investments and real career outcomes.
Second, the union training and innovation program, or UTIP, recognizes the broad capacity of union training centres to deliver our capacity at every stage, from pre-entry and apprenticeship training through journeyperson upskilling at the highest level. UTIP-funded training reaches Canadians in every region through facilities jointly funded by both labour and industry. We are accountable to our members by democratic process, not driven by profit, but by purpose, and expected to drive results. Expanding UTIP would help promote apprenticeship as a first-choice career path, not a fallback option.
The third topic is direct entry success stories. Across Canada, enhanced direct entry programs provide strong models of success. Candidates complete structured 12- to 20-week programs that are screened and aligned directly with employer sponsors. Candidates are immediately registered as apprentices, and their hours count towards completion. Federal expansion of direct entry initiatives under UTIP would accelerate results within months.
The fourth topic is microcredentials and the recognition of Red Seal trades. Microcredentials should complement, not compete with, apprenticeship. When a microcredential affects an existing Red Seal trade, participants should be registered apprentices or licensed journeypersons in that trade.
Bloc
Director of Canadian Training, United Association Canada
I recommend the government embed....
Am I still allowed to talk here?
Liberal
Bloc
Marilène Gill Bloc Côte-Nord—Kawawachikamach—Nitassinan, QC
The interpreter mentioned that the text that is being read has not been provided to the interpretation services and that the interpretation conditions currently do not meet the standards. Therefore, interpretation is impossible.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
I'm sorry. It's not mandatory to provide a written text.
If you could speak a little slower, Mr. Gordon, we'll continue.
Director of Canadian Training, United Association Canada
Okay. I'm sorry about that.
Third, we've mentioned direct entry success stories.
Fourth, we recommend that the government embed the prerequisite that any participant in a microcredential training program that impacts an existing Red Seal trade should first be a registered apprentice or licensed journeyperson. If this is embedded as a prerequisite to funding opportunities, such as UTIP or the sustainable jobs plan or related funding initiatives, then it will maintain integrity and measurable outcomes.
When microcredentials are inappropriately utilized, they can displace qualified trades professionals and their graduates. They may lack direct apprenticeship pathways, and they often enter into the underground economy without licensing or insurance and can pose risks to workers and the public. The only true measure of pre-entry program success is that its graduates become registered apprentices.
To strengthen trade recognition, the government could fund a public-facing database verifying qualifications of Red Seal professionals, similar to Skilled Trades Ontario, which would bring transparency, accountability and public confidence.
Fifth, reinstate apprenticeship grants. With the apprenticeship completion grants having ended March 31, 2025, there's now a gap in simple, effective incentives. Reinstating modernized grants that follow the apprentice would yield immediate results and support budget 2025's goal to grow the workforce and build high-paying careers.
Remove barriers and build inclusion. We must also address supports that help apprentices stay in the system and succeed, such as affordable child care, parental leave, wellness and mental health supports and culturally aware diversity training.
Women in trades programs work best when child care is successful and predictable. Canada's Building Trades Unions' construction trades hub is an excellent additional resource that is federally supported and helps potential apprentice candidates navigate various resources or potentially look for their career of choice in apprenticeship that they're seeking to align with online. This promotes an—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Mr. Gordon, thank you. You can raise these points in answers to questions, but we've gone over a bit.
We'll begin the first round of questioning with Mr. Reynolds for six minutes.
Conservative
Colin Reynolds Conservative Elmwood—Transcona, MB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, witnesses.
My first question is for you, Mr. Gordon.
I'm a Red Seal electrician myself, and I'm actually the sitting VP of IBEW 2085, so I appreciate your being here today.