Human Resources Committee on May 7th, 2026

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

First, I'll say that we needed more transparency on this matter. The Liberals passed a motion in the Standing Committee on Public Accounts for an independent public inquiry, but all of a sudden, when the matter came up in the House, the motion, which was adopted unanimously by the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, was defeated.

In the interest of transparency, can you tell me, in 30 seconds, if you're prepared to provide the committee, within the next two weeks, with the full list of contracts associated with Cúram, the initial costs versus the current costs, the beneficiary firms and the amounts paid?

[Cliff Groen]

With regard to the contracts, we have already provided all the contracts associated with the benefits delivery modernization program multiple times. As I said earlier, it's not my position to engage in debate on issues between members in the House of Commons or in this committee.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

My question included other points.

When it comes to operating costs, during technical briefings, officials could not provide us with the annual system operating costs, transaction costs or licence costs.

How can Parliament oversee the use of public funds if this information is not even available?

[Cliff Groen]

From what I recall, the question that came up during technical briefings was on the costs of continuing to operate the system at the end of the benefits delivery modernization program in 2031. Our response included the exact cost of operating the system in five or six years. Because we were criticized for not coming up with a good estimate for 2026, it would not be appropriate to offer an answer.

However, I can assure you that the costs associated with delivering this program, per client, will be lower because we have a modernized, automated system.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

I'd like to talk about the human aspect quickly.

Besides acknowledging that 85,000 seniors got their benefits late and were impacted, does the department acknowledge that working conditions have deteriorated with Cúram due to the pressure on employees to respond to Canadians in distress using defective tools?

[Cliff Groen]

Thank you for that question.

We're taking the situation with our employees very seriously. However, the Cúram platform provides us with a modern system for delivering benefits to Canadians. Having a system that's not working would have been more stressful for me.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Larouche.

Ms. Goodridge, you have five minutes.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Groen, for being back here at committee.

I appreciate that we received the responses to the questions that were asked at the March 26 meeting. In those responses, there were 53,000 people waiting for payments, and now there are 50,000 people. That means in a couple of months, you were able to clear the backlog by 3,000. That is a fairly troubling amount. I understand that you guys are doing your best, but that still means there are 50,000 Canadians who don't have their funds.

One of the things I wondered after our last meeting on this was what I would do if I were a senior and I were not technological. I would probably go to a Service Canada office.

I needed to get my son's passport, so rather than just submit the paperwork, I decided I would go to the Fort McMurray Service Canada office and wait. Do you have any idea how long I had to wait on March 31 at the Fort McMurray Service Canada office just to see someone?

[Cliff Groen]

We do have regular stats related to all of our offices and the average wait times, but I could not tell you what the wait time was on March 31 at the Fort McMurray Service Canada centre.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

I waited two hours and 20 minutes.

I witnessed multiple people walk in who waited for about an hour but couldn't afford to wait any longer, so they got very frustrated and left. It was obvious to me while I was there that the staff were stressed because many people were there because they hadn't received their payments. They were waiting for EI or they were waiting for different pieces like that, and they did not have the support. At one point, there weren't enough chairs in the waiting room for everybody who was waiting. That's a problem, and this is the reality.

A lot of seniors don't have the capacity to go online or they don't have the skill set to go online. They feel safer going in person or calling on the phone. I've tried calling. It doesn't quite work; people are getting lost all the time. Our offices are getting phone calls on a regular basis, and people are frustrated.

Is there any way you can improve your customer service to help people when they say, “I'm waiting for my OAS,” so they can go to the front of some line somewhere? Even at a Service Canada office, they still had to wait for two and a half hours.

[Cliff Groen]

Service Canada wait times are posted online on an ongoing basis every day. I encourage individuals to go online and look at the average wait time.

There may have been a situation on March 31. I'm not doubting your experience at the Fort McMurray centre, but our average wait time across the country is not two and a half hours. It is not one hour. Typically, the average wait—

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

I appreciate that.

When I decided to go to the Fort McMurray Service Canada office at 9:50 a.m., I checked what the wait time was before I went there. It said the wait time was an hour and a half. When I got there, the receptionist told me it was probably going to be closer to two hours. It was two hours and 20 minutes before I saw somebody.

I understand different clients take different amounts of time, but that is a very long wait, regardless. That's the reality a lot of our seniors are facing. If they walk in and the waiting room is completely full and they've already tried phoning a few times but they haven't gotten through, they feel like they're not going to wait for two and a half hours, so they will just walk out.

[Cliff Groen]

I think it's important to ensure we are dealing with the norm rather than some particular one-day case.

Last year—fiscal year 2025-26—the average wait time for the pensions call centre was 17.8 minutes. For the EI call centre, it was 4.8 minutes. For our dental call centre, it was 10.4 minutes. Those are the averages. On certain days, the average time can be longer or shorter depending on a variety of factors.

Do we want clients to have to wait more than an hour? That is not the expectation, and that is not the typical service result.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

I think it's probably fairly typical in Fort McMurray, based on some of the feedback I've received, but that's neither here nor there.

Would it be possible for you to provide a new breakdown of where those 50,000 people are by province, as well as an urban versus rural split, and could you give us a better explanation of how you decided what was rural?

I don't know if you necessarily followed the standard rural definition, because you decided to do it based on service delivery. Perhaps it would be helpful if you could list which communities are classified as urban, or something similar to that, so we have a better picture.

[Cliff Groen]

Certainly. We have the data related to the breakdown of the 50,000 by province. We did use Canada Post information in the determination of urban versus rural, but I'm happy to provide further clarification.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Welcome, Mr. Villeneuve.

You have the floor for five minutes.

[Louis Villeneuve, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you very much.

Good morning, gentlemen. Thank you for being here.

I'm taking part in this committee for the first time. In a past life, I worked in an IT role for a company that used to provide digital transition services. We handled many cases, and not a single one was straightforward. There are always challenges and unknowns. I think it's the same thing in this case. Obviously, one senior person or one person waiting for government service, without success, is one senior and one person too many. I think everybody agrees on that.

The current system issues benefits to 7.7 million Canadians. How effective is the system currently, percentage-wise?

[Cliff Groen]

Percentage effectiveness—

[Louis Villeneuve, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Yes. How effective is the system right now, as we speak, percentage-wise? We know that there have been some issues and that you're still trying to resolve them. I'd like to know about the current status.

[Cliff Groen]

Some 7.9 million Canadians were receiving benefits as of the end of April. Some 50,000 people applied for benefits and are waiting beyond their first month of entitlement. Thus, 7.9 million recipients are getting their benefits on time, and we're still processing the 50,000 people to ensure they get their benefits as soon as possible.

[Louis Villeneuve, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you.

What action has been taken to turn things around and ensure that the system is working properly?

[Cliff Groen]

We've implemented many measures to address this issue. We've added more capabilities in the system to increase the rate of automation. The new system provides more opportunities for automation, and we've added another component in the system to enhance automation. We've also increased the number of employees to process the backlog.

Our program, which seeks to encourage clients to submit their claims online, is another essential element. It delivers a better experience because clients don't need to go to a Service Canada office to submit their claims. It's also more efficient for us because a big proportion of online claims can be processed automatically, without human intervention, and our employees can focus on clients and on the claims that require manual review.

[Louis Villeneuve, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you.

We know that any system inevitably comes with challenges. If we had not changed this system, what risks would that have posed to our fellow Canadians?

[Cliff Groen]

We had serious concerns that the system could stop working.

I'll give you an example.

The United States had a similar system for veterans, and it was also using COBOL language. They made a slight modification due to political change, and they could not pay veterans for several months. We had serious concerns that that could happen here in Canada. That's the kind of risk that needs to be managed, and so we wanted to roll out a new system.

Someone brought up the example of Phoenix. We know that system caused significant challenges for public servants, but most Canadians were probably not familiar with the public service pay system. If the system that delivers old age security benefits for seniors were to crash, it would create a crisis that would reverberate across Canada. We had to manage that risk, and that's why we went ahead. When we rolled out the new system, all the 7.4 million individuals that were getting benefits in March of the previous year received their payments between March and April.

I believe that shows that the system was rolled out properly.