Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Dec. 12th, 2006

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

And section 110 and section 111 are actually the basis for appeal in RAD--would you agree with me?

[John Frecker]

Yes.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Okay. And those two points I raised are not there.

[John Frecker]

No, but if the RAD is an appeal division, you don't need that. The whole point is you don't need these technical grounds. If it's an appeal division, it is sitting in the same position as the original decision-maker.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Okay. I'll have to cut it off right there.

We have a couple of minutes left. Does anyone feel that they have a question that needed to be asked and didn't get time to be on the agenda?

No? Okay.

Thank you very much, Mr. Frecker, for coming in today. On behalf of the committee I want to say thank you.

We will wait for a couple of minutes to give Mr. Frecker time to move away and then we will deal with the two motions we have.

Thank you again, sir.

[John Frecker]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Okay, we're back in session again.

The first motion we have to deal with is from Mr. Karygiannis. You all have a copy, I believe, of Mr. Karygiannis's motion. We will move now to Mr. Karygiannis to present this motion.

Mr. Karygiannis.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. Chair, I want to thank you for allowing me the opportunity. It's very simple. I think this committee at its inception, and certainly going back to previous Parliaments, when the Reform, then the Alliance, and the Conservative Party were able to call appointees in....

One of the things I'm asking is that we call the appointees for citizenship judges. There are six people on the list, and I understand that since this list was published there have been another three people added to it. I would ask that we ask the citizenship judges to come to tell us why they're such good people and also ask them questions regarding their appointments.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you, Mr. Karygiannis.

Mr. Jaffer.

[Rahim Jaffer, Conservative, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

I agree with the principle of this motion. As Mr. Karygiannis just mentioned, in the previous incarnations of the opposition, I remember supporting this sort of effort. I don't ever recall the government of the day agreeing to it at the time, but I'm glad to see that there's a change of heart now that the Liberals are in opposition.

I have a problem with one part of this. I don't have any issue with accountability and transparency in hearing from these people, but I would be more inclined to support hearing witnesses who are IRB judges, Federal Court appointments, or the sorts of appointments that actually affect the outcome of people's cases.

Citizenship judges are more symbolic in nature. Surely they have an important role and confer citizenship, but the process is already finished by the time they give the citizenship to individuals. So I would be inclined to add even Federal Court judges or other appointments that are more significant in the effect of the outcome.

We trusted the process under the previous government, and I trust the process now. But I think it would be a waste of our time, seeing that we have limited resources.

I know Mr. Wilson was talking earlier about the cost to committee, and I think hearing citizenship judges, as opposed to some of the other more significant appointments, would be a waste of our time.

So if there is will for a friendly amendment, I would ask to consider removing the citizenship judges part from this motion. But I'll also even potentially add other appointments that affect the outcome regarding immigrants and refugees. So that's what I would suggest. But I'm willing to support—

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

According to our Standing Orders,

The committee, if it should call an appointee or nominee to appear pursuant to section (1) of the Standing Order, shall examine the qualifications and competence of the appointee or nominee to perform the duties of the post to which he or she has been appointed or nominated.

Does that exclude other people?

Go ahead.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. William Farrell]

Right now what you have in front of you is a motion moved by Mr. Karygiannis, dealing with these orders in council.

What Mr. Jaffer suggests is if there are other orders in council on which he would like to call people, he can give a notice of motion, listing what orders of council were put before the committee that were deemed referred to the committee. Then the committee can make a decision on that.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Point of order.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

I'm sure that Mr. Jaffer certainly has done his homework. If so, he would find out that citizenship judges have an impact on people's lives. As well, they have judicial review. We moved the citizenship part away from a judge, and only when there are questions that affect people's lives—if they become a citizen or not—does it go to the judge. Then an individual appears in front of a judge, and gives evidence and questions. The judge has a means of making decisions. So the citizenship judge is not just somebody who sits up and swears people in. He also has powers.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you.

Mr. Siksay and Madam Folco.

Do you have a point to go back on, on the same point?

[Rahim Jaffer, Conservative, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Yes, I do on that point, since it's become a point of debate. Mr. Karygiannis talks about his homework. Can he identify a citizenship judge who's refused or caused any challenge for any citizenship that's already been conferred through the process? I don't think there's been one.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Do you want this from my files, or do you want the ministry to find out how many of them have been refused? You will be surprised.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Mr. Siksay, please, then Rahim.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I support this motion. It's something the committee should be doing, and we'll be voting for it. I'm also supportive of looking at other appointees, should we have that kind of motion come before us.

I'd like to remind committee members of the first report of this committee that we made in this Parliament, where we were asking the government to development skill- and competence-related criteria for all appointed positions, and we were asking for that kind of information.

I know this hasn't necessarily been accepted by the government at this point, but I'm wondering if the analysts and the clerk can do their best to get any of the information that exists, which we could have before we meet with these folks, should this motion pass, including existing job descriptions for the position.

Also I believe that the minister's office would be able to provide us with the curricula vitae of the appointees. This is information that we should have before the scheduled meeting with these appointees.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

It's worth noting that on Monday, May 15, 2006, it was unanimously agreed that the Government of Canada develop skills- and competence-related criteria for all government appointments, including board members and senior officers of crown corporations. So that was unanimously agreed to at that meeting on May 15. It was a very good point.

Who do we have? Madam Folco, please.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Following Mr. Siksay, I noticed that in the list of appointments we're getting, the CVs of these people are never attached. In the past, when the appointment was made, the second page was always the résumé of this person's professional life. I wonder if we could ask the clerk to send us the professional résumés of those people who have been appointed by the present government in anything that touches immigration. That would be both citizenship judges and members of the IRB.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Yes.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

As a matter of fact, as a matter of regular procedure.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

And the clerk has just informed me that the request has already gone in. It went in yesterday, as a matter of fact. Thank you.

Okay, the motion is before us, and you know what the question is.

(Motion agreed to) [See Minutes of Proceedings]

Thank you.

Okay, the second motion is a notice of motion from Mr. Siksay. I wouldn't read this. I don't think I'd get through it. I'll just pass it over to you, Mr. Siksay.