Citizenship and Immigration Committee on May 6th, 2019

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

On this compensation fund that you're talking about, this doesn't preclude the client from bringing a personal action against the consultant or bringing a personal action against the lawyer, which they can do now. They can bring an action against a lawyer. Can they bring an action in the courts, aside from your compensation fund, against the consultant?

[Natasha Kim]

Absolutely: they would still have the normal recourse that they currently have available.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Yes, I assumed that.

I'm a little confused, Minister, by your comments about the bylaws and rules, in that you—not you personally, but the minister—would be setting forth the bylaws and rules. I was led to believe that the regulator would set the bylaws and rules, and that if you thought they were inappropriate, by using regulation through the Governor in Council you could override those rules. I wonder if you can clarify the rules and bylaws that will be set by someone, either by you or by the regulator?

[Lori MacDonald]

Actually, the regulator will establish the rules and bylaws through the composition of the board, which will set up the framework for that, but ultimately, the minister, in terms of oversight, can have a direction or a say in terms of the code of conduct or the rules that are there, to ensure that the board that's establishing them is respecting the intent of the legislation and the regulations as they are set out.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

How would the minister do that? Are there guidelines?

[Lori MacDonald]

The board of regulators will establish, based on advice and guidance from the department and from their own body, what they would see as prudent in terms of the code of conduct but also in terms of bylaws. They'll transfer a number of their best experiences and advice that they've established to date.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Right.

We've had a number of hearings in the last decade or so, at least three times that I can recall, and one of the big complaints we've heard was about the consultants' fees. We have had people come here and say that their fees are outrageous.

With the lawyers, there's a process by which their fees can be assessed and generally reduced, although not always. Are you going to have a similar process for consultants so that if someone doesn't like the fees that are being charged, there would be a process of assessing those fees?

[Lori MacDonald]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Yes. They actually will be set out in regulations in terms of the fees as well.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

I don't mean that. If a client doesn't like the fees of the consultant, what right does that client have to challenge those fees?

[Lori MacDonald]

Yes, there will be a dispute mechanism established in the bylaws so that they can actually dispute those fees.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Can you assist us as to what's planned for that? That's one of the major complaints we've had against consultants.

[Natasha Kim]

Madam Chair, the act sets out that there would be a bylaw authority to establish that so that it could be addressed, similar to law societies.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Yes, I understand that. Is it going to be approved by a court? With the legal fees, lawyers have to go before a court official who assesses the fees. Will there be a court official who will approve or not approve those fees?

[Lori MacDonald]

The board itself will establish the fees.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

All right. That's to come. The bill hasn't been exactly.... The regulator hasn't been held in exactly the highest esteem possible. Otherwise, we wouldn't have had all of these hearings or reviews at this committee. Why should we have confidence that this new body will succeed where the current regulator has failed if it's run by the same people involved at the top?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Michelle Rempel]

You have 10 seconds, Minister.

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Because we will establish the code of conduct, we will have presence on the board and we will have a new statutory authority to.... It's not the same body. It'll be a college. We're talking about two different things.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Michelle Rempel]

Thank you.

Mr. Tabbara.

[Marwan Tabbara, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Tilson was talking about the fees. I wanted to go over that.

We heard many individuals' testimonies when we had these meetings, and they said that some individuals were experiencing high fees compared to other consultants. In the new process, what are some of the protections now in your measures?

It says that there will be a fee mediation committee to help broker fee disputes. If you could give it to us in general terms, what would that look like? How would the dispute work between various consultants who are charging similar rates? Would there be a certain rate for similar services?

[Lori MacDonald]

We haven't established it to that degree as of yet. That will be part of the work that is to come for the board in terms of establishing their bylaws, what those fees will look like and what dispute mechanisms will be put in place for those.

[Marwan Tabbara, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Okay, so it's in process.

For all of us at the committee here, I think that protection for clients is the number one priority, and I think that's all everyone at the committee is trying to get to.

A lot of clients felt very vulnerable coming forward with complaints. They felt that if their application was in process, though they may have a concern, they'd just leave it alone so that maybe their paperwork would go through correctly. They had already invested such and such dollars and wanted to get their families over, so there was a fear of making a complaint.

How does this new regulation help with filing a complaint for those individuals who are coming forward with a complaint?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

I think it is with the reorganization of the college and putting forward a new college, a new self-regulating body that will have public interest directors and will maintain and serve the public interest to make sure that its top priority is the protection of the public. Once that is established, based on that direction, we expect that they will put mechanisms in place to make sure that people who come forward with a complaint are not adversely affected and that there is transparency in the process.

This is why we're also investing in the outreach officers to make sure that our clients are aware of who to use as legitimate consultants, and having the body make sure that training and competency is a top priority, to protect the public. We expect the new college to provide those processes.

In the event that this council does not continue, a new corporation will be established, which will become the new college. Either way, we'll get this done, and the priority will be the protection of the public.

[Marwan Tabbara, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

You alluded to my last question, which is licensing and training. We're looking at a tiered licensing system with these new measures. There's more education. There's more training for a lot of these consultants. How is that going to benefit our number one priority, which is protecting the client? This is probably more training and a more rigorous educational program compared to what we had previously. Could you elaborate on that?

[Natasha Kim]

There would be the authority to establish tiered licensing. Essentially, tiered licensing is establishing tiers for those practising, both in terms of eligibility requirements and the scope of practice.

For example, someone may have a limited scope of practice to advise on international student applications, or they may have a general scope of practice to advise on all sorts of immigration applications. The statute provides that if they were to actually represent before a tribunal such as the IRB, extra education would be required.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Michelle Rempel]

Thank you.

Ms. Kwan, you have the floor.