Citizenship and Immigration Committee on July 18th, 2016

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

Thank you to all the panellists and I'll begin my question and first comment to Ms. Bhullar. Your family, starting with your late brother, the Honourable Manmeet Bhullar, worked very hard to help these particular minorities and your family has continued ever since on his behalf and we commend Manmeet and the Bhullar family for doing so.

Your family helped settle, or at least temporarily settle, hundreds out of Afghanistan and into India, and continues to support them.

Can you briefly tell us what were the greatest challenges you heard of, from your conversation with them, that they faced in Afghanistan?

[Tarjinder Bhullar]

Yes, great question. I think the challenges are diverse but they all wrap around the fact that their fundamental needs while they were in Afghanistan were challenging for them to meet.

I have stories from people who lived there who said that performing funeral rites was out of the question for them because they were not allowed. In Sikh tradition, you cremate the remains. That was not allowed. Children were not allowed to go to school. Women were not able to go anywhere except when they were wearing the burka. They were not able to practise religious gatherings. Most often when they would be gathered together there was fear of either a bomb or violence towards people who were taking part. If shopkeepers were found to be not Muslim, they were then used for something as horrible as being urinated on. In some cases, if there was a restaurant that had hot oil, that hot oil was spilt on them.

There have also been examples given of where people were kidnapped and held for ransom. One father used the example of not being able to take his little girl with him into the main market area because he was afraid the little girl would be taken away and harmed in ways that you would never want your daughter to be harmed by other men. Those are just some of the examples, and that effect has lingered with them even now that they are in India. One of the volunteers who went there, Hamreet Bains, mentions how children do not even simply know how to play outside because they have ingrained in them the fear of not being able to leave their homes and be safe.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

Thank you, Ms. Bhullar.

I'm going to ask Balpreet Singh a question. You mentioned in your testimony that Sikhs and Hindus face a treacherous journey in trying to reach Canadian missions in Pakistan or India. Are you able to expand on why it's so dangerous, especially for Sikhs and Hindus?

[Balpreet Singh]

Yes. As you can tell, Sikhs have a very distinct physical identity. So for Sikhs to travel, it takes quite a bit. They usually travel in packs because it is a treacherous journey and they can be identified and attacked. They can make short journeys, especially locally, but they tell me that even going internally, for example on a trip to Kabul from an outside region, is very dangerous. They don't know when a Sikh might be kidnapped, or when they might be targeted or attacked. This isn't just something that might happen. This has happened and it's an ongoing fear that they have.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

You've stated that the Afghan Sikh and Hindu minorities fear being on lists, even when they leave. Can you elaborate on why that's a problem and why people want to put their names on a list to leave Afghanistan, and even when they leave they fear putting their names on any list?

[Balpreet Singh]

Leaving Afghanistan is a challenge. The reason why Manmeet is celebrated so is because he made the impossible happen. I struggled with this problem for six months until I contacted Manmeet and he made it happen, and he's not with us anymore.

The fact is that they fear having their names brought forward. If that is leaked publicly, either the regions where they're coming from or their names themselves, there is a distinct risk of their family members being kidnapped, being held for extortion for large sums of money, especially if it's known that they are able to pay or they have others who are helping them who might be able to pay. For these reasons, for them to leave Afghanistan is very difficult.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

In terms of Hindus and Sikhs, how are they co-existing? I know it's a unique relationship that they have, and it's probably predicated on survival. Could you elaborate on how these two communities are co-existing and why they're intertwined?

[Balpreet Singh]

Originally, Sikhs and Hindus were known as money-lending communities. They were very affluent. The ones who could leave have left. But out of necessity, the ones who remain are essentially relying on each other. So if you go to a Sikh corridor in Kabul, you will see that Sikhs and Hindus are essentially living together, worshipping together, and once again, that's out of necessity. They've just formed that bond.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

Mr. Kang, you've worked for the IRB appeals division and are well aware of the refugee acceptance process in Canada. Do you think that the current rules and regulations are adequate to assist internally displaced people such as the Afghan Sikh and Hindu minorities? If so, how? If not, how should they be revised?

[Narindarpal Singh Kang]

With respect, they are not adequate. Clearly, the determinations that we made inside are for inland refugee claimants. But for those who are abroad, overseas refugees, settlement processes are mired in bureaucracy. Those who are internally displaced simply do not meet the test for convention refugees until they flee their country of nationality.

Now the source country assessments that were made before, which have now been suspended—we ran out of time on that—I think ought to be re-engaged or reinstated. It's something that this committee certainly should look at, in terms of how we can designate certain countries where that methodology can then be utilized to secure a safe passage out for those people.

If I may briefly comment on the R2P concept, the responsibility to protect, if it's expanded or hybridized to the point where Canada says, yes, that responsibility is to see if we can engage with the country of nationality to secure safe passage, that's a methodology that's worth exploring.

To answer your question, no, it's not adequate right now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Borys Wrzesnewskyj]

Thank you.

Mr. Saroya, you have seven minutes, please.

[Bob Saroya, Conservative, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, Tarjinder, I'm sorry for your loss, as your loss is our loss, a loss for all Canadians. Single-handedly what he put on this issue, on the Afghani Sikh issue, I learned from him after his death. Again, I'm sorry for the loss, and we all feel for you.

[Tarjinder Bhullar]

Thank you.

[Bob Saroya, Conservative, Markham—Unionville, ON]

I have a question for Mr. Singh here.

We had 200,000 Sikhs living there not too long ago—in the seventies, eighties, or something along that line—now there are 2,000 remaining. What happened to the remaining ones?

[Balpreet Singh]

Essentially, with the fall of the pro-Soviet regime, religious liberties also started to fall. Under the Taliban, for example, as was mentioned by Mr. Kang, there were identifications required for Sikh homes, on Sikh persons, so whoever could leave essentially spent whatever money they could and they left. What you're left with now are those who are so poor or so destitute that they just don't have the means to go anywhere. As the situation has become worse, the ability to leave is also decreasing, as the pressure on that community, the persecution they face, is actually increasing.

[Bob Saroya, Conservative, Markham—Unionville, ON]

The persecution is simply the Sikhs, not the Hindus.

[Balpreet Singh]

I wouldn't say so. I think Sikhs are easier to identify. Hindus, because they don't necessarily have the same articles of faith, can blend in somewhat more easily. But locally I am told that both Sikhs and Hindus are not treated fairly or as equals.

[Bob Saroya, Conservative, Markham—Unionville, ON]

On the whole list of issues they're facing—the religious persecution, the issue with cremating the bodies, fear, the lack of education, physical attacks, schooling, and many, many others—what is the solution? If you had a wish list today, what would be on the wish list?

[Balpreet Singh]

Our biggest challenge has been connecting with those communities and getting an honest, open assessment of what their needs are. To be quite frank, the Sikhs and Hindus in Afghanistan have lived there for hundreds of years. If there are any supports that we can provide them to allow them to continue to live there, that would be a priority. But we know, for many Sikhs in Afghanistan, that simply isn't possible. They've reached a point of no return. They simply cannot live there anymore.

What we are suggesting is that, with the assistance of NGOs or some sorts of bodies on the ground there, we actually connect with them and find out what their needs are, and if it turns out, as we suspect, that they cannot continue, that we provide them an expedited process to leave.

[Bob Saroya, Conservative, Markham—Unionville, ON]

One day I spoke in the House of Commons on the Sikh issue. Within two minutes I received a call in my Ottawa office from somebody claiming to be non-Sikh saying that we should take all the Sikhs, Hindus, Christians, and everybody else out of the country; that this is an Islamic country.

In my opinion, it's hard for them to stay in the country. The solution possibly is that we take them out.

What can be done to bring them out?

[Balpreet Singh]

That is a difficult question. Bringing them out is indeed the problem. There are many things Manmeet did that we can't speak openly about, such as specifically what region he was targeting, how many he helped, and how he helped them. One issue was how to extract the six who fear it being found out that they are leaving, without others knowing. That was a huge challenge.

Manmeet and his family have been able to extract 200 people with the support of the Sikh community. If you're looking at 2,000, it's a huge task; it's virtually impossible. Manmeet was able to leverage his personal contacts and relationships to make it happen, but those were just amazing connections that regular people like me simply don't have.

[Bob Saroya, Conservative, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Is there any way that immigration minister John McCallum or their side can help bring them into one part of Kabul or somewhere and then bring them out, with a different approach?

[Balpreet Singh]

I think it goes back to my earlier suggestion that if we can have an NGO or some sort of assistance on the ground—and I know Canada has relationships on the ground because of our military mission there and our embassy there—to help us reach out to the community and find out what the situation is on the ground, we'll have a better ability to understand how we can help them and, if it is indeed as we suspect the case that they need to be extracted, how that can happen.

[Bob Saroya, Conservative, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Is there anything else you would add on the same question?

[Tarjinder Bhullar]

Yes. You asked what the wish list would be. If I could speak quite openly, the wish list would be that we get assistance from the government, whether in the form of NGOs or other government services, on the ground in Afghanistan so that we can make an accurate list of the number of Afghan Sikhs and Hindus in the country who are living in a situation that is no longer a viable solution. We'd like to have the assistance to officially make that list, find out whether they have the travel documents that are necessary, and then work with the Canadian government to figure out a way to bring them to Canada.

I know the rules state that they have to be in a different country first before they come here, but a simplified version of what we would like is that once we know how many of them there are, we would like to expedite their transfer here to Canada as refugees.

That's the wish list.