Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Feb. 17th, 2022

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

If the committee makes a recommendation to this effect, will you make it a priority?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

On an automatic basis, I don't just implement whatever recommendations other parliamentarians make to me. I take them seriously and consider them, but I need to take that consideration.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Okay.

You talk about processing applications fairly.

How do you explain the data from your own department that demonstrate that, in Quebec, a disparity exists between francophone and anglophone educational institutions with respect to the refusal rates for study permits?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Madam Chair, I think I'm out of time. Perhaps I can clarify this in the second round.

Mr. Brunelle‑Duceppe, could we come back to this question later?

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

The time is up.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

In that case, you can provide a response to the committee in writing. We would be happy to receive it.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

That is possible. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

We will now proceed to Ms. Kwan.

Ms. Kwan, you will have six minutes for your round of questioning. Please proceed.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the minister for coming to our committee.

On pages 11 and 12 of the Pollara report on anti-racism, it indicates that there is “[w]idespread...reference to certain African nations [by officials] as 'the dirty 30'...[s]tereotyping Nigerians as particularly corrupt or untrustworthy.” On page 13 of the report, there are concerns that racism impacts the outcome of decisions on immigration applicants by officers. It cites “discriminatory rules” of assessing immigration applicants that are different from those of other nations. Additional financial requirements for Nigeria are one example that was cited.

Based on this, is the minister concerned that the Canada student direct stream requires students to have a guaranteed income certificate of $10,000, but the new Nigeria express program requires a student to have $30,000 in their account for six months?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you for this important question.

First of all, any sort of systemic racism or bias within any government operation is completely unacceptable. The results of that Pollara study are deeply concerning to me. They were the result of a proactive exercise from the department to figure out whether there was internal discrimination, and we're doing what we can to root out racism within the department—not just internal to the department, but as the effect of our policies, which is what your question touches on.

When I learned of this issue, I was quite concerned, but I've received an answer that is satisfactory to me. In Nigeria, the higher threshold is actually a lower total than students from other nations are required to provide. Though it's $10,000, they also need to make good on proof of funds for the cost of their tuition, the average of which—my officials can correct me if I'm off—is a total of $43,000. However, the issue is that we don't necessarily have financial partners on the ground in Nigeria, so having the proof of funds of $30,000 is more equitable when you look across the requirements in other countries, where you have not only $10,000, but also the proof of funds to cover the cost of an international student's tuition.

I looked into this when I learned about it, because I was quite concerned, but I saw that it wasn't quite the problem that I thought it was when I first learned of the details.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Why didn't the officials or the government just add Nigeria to the student direct stream, with the same level playing field of requirements as other nations?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

To use the student direct stream, we need to work with financial institutions on the ground, and we don't necessarily have partners of similar strength in every nation across the world. I'm very bullish on the use of the student direct stream to improve the quality of the application process for international students. To the extent that we can find those partners and expand the student direct stream to other countries, it's something I actively want to pursue, because I've seen very real success in the increase of approval rates in jurisdictions where we have been able to deploy it. I'd describe it as a work in progress.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

The rate of approval for Nigerian students is at 12%, Minister, compared to the top 10 source countries, so it is nowhere near.... There are applications where students have met the onerous financial requirements but were rejected because it was assumed that somehow the authenticity of the bank statements was false, even when students presented documentation from the bank verifying the amount of dollars they had in the system.

The answer that the minister provided is still concerning. It doesn't answer all my questions, but I don't have time right now to get into all of it. I would love to sit down with the minister and the officials to further explore this.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

That would be a healthy exercise, Ms. Kwan. I would be willing to have a meeting with you on that issue.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you.

At the beginning, after you were appointed, you also offered meetings on a couple of issues that were priorities for me. I sent in that information right away, requesting a meeting, and it never happened. I didn't even get a response from you or your officials with respect to that, so I hope this will actually will be followed up on.

On the Chinook tool that was developed by officials internally without consultation with stakeholders, is the minister concerned that the racist attitudes cited in the Pollara report could be incorporated into the development of the Chinook tool?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Not with respect to Chinook, but I'm very concerned about the potential for racism to creep into any Government of Canada operations, including in my department.

Just to be clear on what Chinook is, and what Chinook isn't, Chinook doesn't have—

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Sorry, Minister, I don't need to know that. I already know, but let me ask another question.

The Chinook system was introduced in 2018. It presents risk factors or word flags for applications. Could the minister provide those word flags to the committee?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

There is nothing that Chinook presents that isn't already presented in ordinary files. It's a display tool for IRCC officers to see all of the information they would normally have access to, so I'm unclear what red flags you are referring to in the Chinook system.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

My understanding is that the Chinook system uses word flags for certain things. Maybe I'll ask that question of the officials. They might be more familiar with it.

Let me ask the minister a question about dual intent. Witnesses have indicated that the dual intent provision is confounding and contradictory. It says to the students, “You need to identify if you have an intent to stay.” Then, if they identify that, they will often get a rejection of their application, because the officials would cite that they feared the applicant would not return.

Does the minister agree that this doesn't actually make any sense?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I would not agree that it doesn't make any sense.

I'm being told to stop.

I think there is room for improvement, and that's why in my mandate letter there is a requirement that I establish a pathway to permanent residency for international students, which I am very excited about and would be happy to discuss further with this committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Minister.

We will now go to our second round of questioning.

I will remind members that all questions should be directed through the chair.

Mr. Seeback, you have five minutes.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Minister, I'd like to pick up where Ms. Kwan left off.

When you look at rejection rates.... In particular, I'm going to talk about Nigeria. The approval rate was 40% in 2015. It's now at 12% in 2020. Today, you said you thought things were getting better. For people in Nigeria, in fact, it's getting much worse. When we look at the fact that the Chinook tool came in in 2018, this acceleration of rejections seems to have increased. Earlier today in your testimony, you said you're doing what you can to try to fix this. I think you might be trying, but it's not working.

I want to understand, and this committee needs to understand for this report, exactly what the Chinook tool does. We have had people come to this committee saying they're trying to figure out what it does, but they're not 100% sure. Will the minister, today, commit to tabling a document that explains exactly how the Chinook tool works, what it assesses, what key terms or key flags are used, and if the department has studied whether or not rejection rates have continued to increase since the implementation of Chinook?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I think it would be a very healthy thing, given this conversation, to give whatever information we can about how Chinook operates and, to the extent that we can, answer all the questions you just laid out. I think it's a fair ask of you to have us table some kind of a document explaining what Chinook does.

I may take the liberty to explain what it does not do, because it's clear that there's a lot of concern around the use of artificial intelligence and potential discrimination. To the extent that this committee learns there is systematic discrimination with any of the tools we use, I want you to point it out to me, because that's not okay. I don't believe that the Chinook tool in particular is there, but I would be more than pleased to provide whatever information we can on Chinook.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Thank you very much.

Minister, one other thing that seems to be going on is that there is a bit of an issue with educational consultants around the world allegedly helping to process these applications. In one of the reports submitted to the committee.... There was a study done in Australia and 50% of the small agencies that were being used to do these applications accounted for only 2% of the successfully delivered enrollments. There's a problem.

Many have come to this committee and said that we need to establish a framework of oversight for education agents around the world, and one person suggested that they could be linked to reputable law firms, etc. Is the department doing anything about this issue, and if so, what?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

The answer to your question is yes. For folks who work within Canada, we have the recently established College of Immigration and Citizenship Consultants.

I think you can appreciate that providing oversight to foreign actors who are setting up these cottage industries, which frankly leads to the abuse of certain students who are treated completely unfairly without the support they need.... We are working on the ground to provide as much information as we can to potential applicants.

To the extent that you have suggestions, it would be a very helpful point for the committee to do its work and to provide recommendations on what we can do to boost oversight. Frankly, I am disturbed by the abuse by people trying to defraud the immigration system in Canada to make a few quick bucks, at the cost of students who are suffering greatly. It's not fair. We need to end it and protect these vulnerable students, and that's something that we absolutely must do together.