Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Feb. 17th, 2022

[Pemi Gill]

Thank you, Madam Chair, for the question.

As mentioned in earlier testimony, Chinook is an Excel-based software. Since Excel is used widely and for a variety of purposes across the department, it has not changed how applications are processed. We don't actually provide lists of the software right now. It's not a processing or automated decision-making tool; it is a different way to view information—

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'm sorry for interrupting, Ms. Gill, but your time is up.

We will now proceed to Mr. Dhaliwal.

Mr. Dhaliwal, you will have five minutes. Please proceed.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

It is important to differentiate between francophone immigration in Quebec and in the rest of Canada. I would like the senior assistant deputy minister to explain the major points of the francophone immigration plan outside of Quebec.

[Marian Campbell Jarvis]

Thank you, Madam Chair, for the question.

I'm delighted that Ms. Corinne Prince is here with us. I know she would like to speak about the francophone immigration strategy we have under way.

[Corinne Prince, Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Settlement and Integration, Department of Citizenship and Immigration]

Thank you for the question.

In fact, in 2019, the department developed a comprehensive francophone immigration strategy, which incorporates elements along the entire immigration continuum. We start with promotion and attraction in our overseas missions, focusing on francophone source countries, with Destination Canada, which has a foire d'emploi every year to promote Canada as a destination of choice.

That then moves on through the continuum to our selection tools. Our minister and my colleagues have mentioned several times express entry, which is an important tool for economic streams. We know that over the past years, it has been demonstrated that economic streams bear the most fruit. If we want to bring in more and more francophone immigrants, then we need to use economic streams to do it. That is why, in 2020, we raised the points for both francophone applicants and bilingual applicants in express entry. In fact, that simple change raised the invitations to apply to 8.8% in November of that year. That was a full 3.8% higher than in October of that year, so in just one month, the applications increased significantly.

We are looking at embedding francophone immigration in our regional pilots: the Atlantic immigration pilot, the rural and northern immigration pilot. As colleagues in the department are developing the municipal nominee program with provinces and territories, we are looking at embedding francophone immigration in that upcoming pilot as well.

I won't forget to note that provincial nominee programs are extremely important in attracting and landing francophone candidates. Many of our provincial jurisdictions have targets, so we are working closely with them and encouraging them to use their provincial nominee programs to bring in more and more francophone candidates. In fact, in the recent levels plan that was tabled by our minister on Monday of this week, you will see an increase in PNP spaces. We hope that provinces will rise to the challenge to bring in more and more francophones.

Right through to settlement and integration services, which is an area of expertise, I can tell you that we have increased the tool box over the past several years. We have moved from funding 50 francophone organizations to funding over 80 francophone organizations outside of Quebec. That includes spending of at least $61 million on francophone services. We have worked closely with the francophone community to establish 14 welcoming francophone communities across the country. I'm very proud that we did that by asking the communities themselves to determine which community they would want to be a welcoming community. This was not determined by the department or the government. It was in fact a recommendation from the francophone communities themselves. That, I think, is a model in terms of stakeholder consultations.

In addition, we have implemented a pre-arrival program for francophone entrance. This is a project that is working with five francophone organizations, representing all areas of the country outside of Quebec. This has increased the arrival of francophone candidates who are up to date in terms of what Canada offers, understanding the labour market much better, and we have—

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'm sorry for interrupting, Ms. Prince—

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

Madam Chair, I was able to ask only one question. If I can ask the panel to submit in writing...because she mentioned the PNP.

In B.C., Madam Chair, there is—

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Mr. Dhaliwal, your time is up. Would you like the officials to table something?

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Okay, if the officials can—

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Surrey—Newton, BC]

But I want the officials.... They mentioned the provincial nominee program. When we talk about B.C., the vast majority of francophone immigrants are in B.C. Can the officials table what they are going to do to provide them with resettlement services, which are only offered to PR applicants right now?

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Mr. Dhaliwal.

We will now proceed to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe for two and a half minutes.

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, go ahead.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Campbell Jarvis, you were saying something very interesting just before the technical difficulties. We checked to be sure about what you said; I will quote you word for word. You said: “The department is certainly aware of the risk of discrimination inherent in artificial intelligence systems.” Right afterwards, you said: “We are comfortable” with that.

In all honesty, Ms. Campbell Jarvis, I wonder about this question.

How can we be comfortable when there is a risk of discrimination in a department? I have difficulty understanding you when you say that. I don't follow.

[Marian Campbell Jarvis]

Thank you for the opportunity to participate once more. My apologies for the technical difficulties.

No, we are not comfortable with discrimination. However, we are certainly comfortable following the guidelines from the Treasury Board Secretariat.

They have established a set of guidelines for managing AI projects. I'm proud to say that IRCC was one of the first departments to sign on with TBS's AI guidelines, and that's what we're following.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

You really did say that you are aware of the risk of discrimination inherent in artificial intelligence. Right afterwards, you said that you are comfortable with that risk. That's what we understood.

That scares me a little. We felt that there was a risk of discrimination, and now we have clear evidence of it. It's not even a risk anymore.

That means that the department is, to an extent, accepting a risk of discrimination. As I have just told you, we have evidence of it. There are huge disparities in the acceptance rates of French-speaking students from certain countries in West Africa.

If we are comfortable with the risk of discrimination, a lot of students from West Africa listening to you will wonder whether it's worth the trouble to apply to Canada. They will look to another country instead.

[Marian Campbell Jarvis]

There are a number of aspects to your question.

First, we are very aware of the risks inherent in technology or artificial intelligence. Partiality, discrimination, is clearly one of those risks. We take steps to avoid that risk and reduce it to a minimum.

There is another factor in the process with respect to international students. I will ask Ms. Gill to talk about that process—

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'm sorry for interrupting, Ms. Campbell Jarvis. The time is up.

We will now proceed to Ms. Kwan.

Ms. Kwan, you will have two and a half minutes for your round of questioning.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Before I was cut off in the last round, I was asking officials for the word flags in the Chinook tool. Could the officials please confirm that they can provide the committee with what those word flags are?

[Marian Campbell Jarvis]

I would turn to my colleague Ms. Gill to speak about the operationalization of the Chinook system and your question about red flags.

[Pemi Gill]

Whether an officer is reviewing an application in Chinook, in GCMS or on paper, we always indicate factual information for the officers' awareness. For example, a flag is not necessarily a negative statement; it could be positive as well. Word indicators could be things like that the person is coming for a wedding or a funeral. Another example is if they're coming for a set conference such that there is awareness for officers of a conference—we do that even in the global case management system—and for officers to be aware of the information that the client has presented.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Could the officials table those word indicators or word flags for the committee's consideration and information?

It's a yes-or-no answer, really.

[Daniel Mills]

We will see what it is possible to disclose, because we must consider the integrity of the programs. So we will look at the indicators to see what we can share with members of the committee.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I'm particularly interested in the word flags that are being used in the Chinook system, because it will also advise the committee or give a sense to the committee of whether those particular word flags could have biases incorporated in them, especially in light of the Pollara report indicating that racist and stereotype attitudes have been displayed by officials. Since it was officials who developed the Chinook tool, and they did not consult with outsiders—it was an internal system—how it was developed and what word flags have been used to flag applications, whether for approval or rejection, would be important to note so that we can see whether those word flags have any indication toward issues of stereotypical and racist attitudes.

I would ask officials to please table that information.

I would also like to ask officials to what extent assumptions about the home country, the family who might be coming and the economic conditions of the country they're leaving prejudice the decision.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Ms. Kwan, I'm sorry for interrupting. Your time is up.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Madam Chair, perhaps I can ask the officials to table that information for the committee.

Can I get confirmation from officials that they would table that information?