Evidence of meeting #12 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was officers.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Weber  National President, Customs and Immigration Union, Public Service Alliance of Canada
Douglas  Executive Director, Ontario Council of Agencies Serving Immigrants
Barutciski  Professor, As an Individual
Bellissimo  Lawyer, Certified Specialist, Bellissimo Law Group Professional Corporation, As an Individual
Tamjeedi  Senior Legal Officer, United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees

The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 12 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format.

I think we have a few motions to start off with, but I will just get started with giving the introductory comments first.

I want to make a few comments for the benefits of our witnesses and always as reminders to our members as well.

For those who are joining us on Zoom, kindly click on the microphone icon to activate your mic, and please mute yourself when you are not speaking. As a reminder for those on Zoom, at the bottom of your screen, you can select the appropriate channel for interpretation: floor, English or French. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.

As always, kindly wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. I will remind everyone to kindly not speak over each other, as it will be very hard for our translators to translate, and it makes their job difficult.

Of course, please ensure that all of your comments are addressed through the chair. Members, please raise your hand if you wish to speak. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order the best we can.

I have sadly forgotten my red card and yellow card today, but I will give you a one-minute warning, and then I will let you know when your time is up and your microphone will turn off.

Thanks in advance for your co-operation.

Before we get into the order of the day, I'm going to turn to Ms. Rempel Garner. I think she has a couple of motions to introduce.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Thank you, Chair.

I'll begin with our housekeeping motion. I move:

That, notwithstanding the usual practices of the committee concerning access to and distribution of documents,

a. up to three associate members of the committee per party be authorized to receive the notices of meetings and notices of motion and be granted access to the digital binder;

b. that the associate members be designated by the offices of the whips of each recognized party and sent to the committee clerk; and

c. that the provisions of this motion expire as of Monday, January 26, 2026, unless otherwise ordered.

The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz

Thank you, Ms. Rempel Garner.

Do we have anyone to speak to this motion?

(Motion agreed to)

Thank you, Ms. Rempel Garner.

Let's move on to the next one.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Thank you.

Chair, I move:

That the committee invite the Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship to appear before the committee for two hours in relation to both the 2026-2028 Immigration Levels Plan and the Supplementary Estimates (B) 2025-2026 and that this meeting be held no later than Thursday, December 4, 2025.

The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz

Thank you.

Are there any comments or questions? If none, do we have agreement?

(Motion agreed to)

Thank you very much, Ms. Rempel Garner. That's very efficient.

With that, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on October 23, 2025, the committee is resuming its study of the subject matter of Bill C-12, an act respecting certain measures relating to the security of Canada's borders and the integrity of the Canadian immigration system and respecting other related security measures.

I would now like to warmly welcome the witnesses for our first panel.

Joining us by Zoom, we have Debbie Douglas, the executive director of the Ontario Council of Agencies Serving Immigrants.

Here in the room, we have Mark Weber, national president of the Customs and Immigration Union, from the Public Service Alliance of Canada.

I'm going to ask Ms. Douglas if she could begin with an opening statement of up to five minutes, and then I will invite Mr. Weber to do the same.

She just got disconnected, so while we reconnect Ms. Douglas, we will start with Mr. Weber for five minutes.

Thank you.

Mark Weber National President, Customs and Immigration Union, Public Service Alliance of Canada

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Members of the committee, thank you for inviting me to appear as a witness as part of your study on Bill C-12. As national president of the Customs and Immigration Union, I'm happy to be here today to represent Canada's border personnel. I am also appearing today on behalf of our umbrella union, the PSAC, the Public Service Alliance of Canada.

Per its name, Bill C-12 proposes a number of measures intended to strengthen Canada's border and immigration system. On paper, some of these measures are certainly very positive. A prime example of this is language in the Customs Act that would see commercial operators provide border officers with access to facilities for both import and export inspections. The export aspect is currently lacking in the act. This is a commendable addition.

In practice, the reality is that despite already having these powers for import inspections, the CBSA is rarely able to conduct these inspections when it comes to certain modes, such as rail, due to a now well-established lack of staff and lack of facilities at which to do so. While the federal government has made it clear that hiring 1,000 additional officers was a priority—and one we very much welcome—Bill C-12 highlights once again how crucial adequate staffing is to a secure, well-functioning border.

Adequate staffing also needs to be the cornerstone of well-oiled, secure and fair immigration processes, including refugee claims. While Bill C-12 seeks to speed up the refugee claim process to address “lengthy processing times and backlogs”, it is worth pointing out that without the sustained understaffing our border system has experienced for many years, these lengthy processing times and backlogs, and therefore the pressure to seek efficiencies, would likely be far less considerable than they are now.

This is especially important in light of how CBSA has been managing the border for most of its history. Efficiencies, as implemented by CBSA management, almost always result in a degradation of the security and integrity of our border processes. We've seen it with traveller operations, where people seeking entry to Canada do so through automated machines, with no real interaction with officers.

Outside of Bill C-12, we are already seeing it in some circumstances with the refugee claim process itself, where the agency's simplified intake process, known as “one-touch”, means that claimants spend significantly less time meaningfully interacting with officers, with the result of reduced security for the sake of expediency.

Interaction between officers and anyone who seeks to enter the country, be they travellers or refugee claimants, is a key component of border security. These interactions result in better intelligence and allow officers to recognize patterns and flags that would otherwise be missed, ensuring that any potential problem is detected early on and will not put further stress on the system at a later date.

Crucially, experienced officers have the training necessary to navigate complex processes efficiently, without compromising security, yet too often CBSA prefers to push out experienced officers—as it is currently in the process of doing with nearly 200 officers who cannot carry a firearm—eroding both its institutional memory and its ability to maintain a direct contact with people transiting through our borders.

The conclusion here is clear. Ensuring the security and integrity of our border and associated processes starts with an adequate human presence. Without this, without the human element, no bill can hope to truly solve border issues in the long term.

I thank you for having me here today and look forward to your questions.

The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz

Thank you so much, Mr. Weber. That was excellent. It was less than four minutes. Thank you.

I'm going to see whether Ms. Douglas happens to be available to do her five minutes.

You have to unmute yourself, Ms. Douglas.

Thank you. You've now unmuted yourself. Could you maybe start from the top?

Debbie Douglas Executive Director, Ontario Council of Agencies Serving Immigrants

Okay. I thought I had started.

The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz

We couldn't hear you. We can hear you now. If you want to just start from the top, you have five minutes, Ms. Douglas.

We're ready for you.

3:35 p.m.

Executive Director, Ontario Council of Agencies Serving Immigrants

Debbie Douglas

That's great. Thank you very much.

The Ontario Council of Agencies Serving Immigrants, OCASI, is the umbrella organization for immigrant-serving and refugee-serving agencies in Ontario, and it now has over 250 member agencies across the province.

We appreciate the opportunity to submit this brief to the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration. This brief highlights our member agencies' concerns about potential impacts on the communities they serve.

We want to draw attention to the possible negative impacts and unforeseen consequences of Bill C-12 on women and other survivors of gender-based violence, and the disproportionate impact on Black and other racialized people and communities. These measures would weaken refugee protections, undermine charter rights and contravene Canada's—

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

I have a point of order, Madam Chair.

The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz

Go ahead on your point of order.

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

The interpreters are telling me that they unfortunately can't interpret at this time, because the connection is too poor. The health and safety of House staff are important to us, so we need to make a decision.

The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz

Mr. Clerk, what do you recommend?

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

Madam Chair, as soon as there's a risk to the health and safety of House staff, we can't proceed, unfortunately.

The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz

I'm asking the clerk to respond.

The Clerk of the Committee Rémi Bourgault

Mr. Brunelle‑Duceppe, from what I understand, the interpreters have a copy of the witness's opening statement. That could help for the presentation, at least.

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

Okay.

The interpreter says she can read the statement the witness sent us. From what I understand, though, she won't be able to interpret during the question and answer portion of the meeting. Interpreters have suffered acoustic shock before, and we do not want that to happen again.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz

With that, we'll let Ms. Douglas finish her five-minute remarks, since we do have the notes already.

Then, when we're asking questions, Ms. Douglas, you'll probably have to write down the questions and provide us with the answers in written format, if that's okay, and we'll have to get them translated.

Is that okay with everyone? I don't know what else to propose at this point in time. Is that okay?

3:40 p.m.

Executive Director, Ontario Council of Agencies Serving Immigrants

Debbie Douglas

I'm sorry, Madam Chair, but what's the issue?

The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz

The issue is the sound connection. I think that when you did your test earlier this week, you were in a different location. We were able to hear you clearly. Where you are right now, it's very difficult to hear you.

We're able to finish your five minutes because we have your speaking notes. The interpreters now have those speaking notes. I think that all we can do right now is hear you finish your five minutes, and then I'll have to ask you to take down the questions. You'll have to take them down and respond to us in writing. I don't know of any other way to proceed.

3:40 p.m.

Executive Director, Ontario Council of Agencies Serving Immigrants

The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz

Please continue with your five minutes.

3:40 p.m.

Executive Director, Ontario Council of Agencies Serving Immigrants

Debbie Douglas

Should I start at the beginning?

The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz

No, just continue from where you left off, please.