Evidence of meeting #12 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was officers.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Weber  National President, Customs and Immigration Union, Public Service Alliance of Canada
Douglas  Executive Director, Ontario Council of Agencies Serving Immigrants
Barutciski  Professor, As an Individual
Bellissimo  Lawyer, Certified Specialist, Bellissimo Law Group Professional Corporation, As an Individual
Tamjeedi  Senior Legal Officer, United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees

3:40 p.m.

Executive Director, Ontario Council of Agencies Serving Immigrants

Debbie Douglas

This brief highlights our member agencies' concerns about potential impacts on the communities they serve. We want to draw attention to the possible impacts and unforeseen consequences of Bill C-12. We have a number of key concerns.

The first is the new ineligibility categories for refugee claimants. The bill introduces two new ineligibility provisions that prevent individuals from accessing an oral hearing before the Immigration and Refugee Board: first, for persons who claim more than one year after their first entry in Canada, which is for people who have been here since June 24, 2020; second, for persons who claim more than 14 days after entering at the land border between ports of entry. Canada may return such people to countries where they may face persecution and risk to their safety, thus contradicting the non-refoulement principle. Individual circumstances may change and may present a new need for protection beyond the one-year deadline imposed by Bill C-12. This provision can disproportionately impact women, members of the 2SLGBTQI+ community and other survivors of gender-based violence. It risks excluding people whose countries are facing political upheaval and war, and who are now [Technical difficulty—Editor].

The second is the pre-removal risk assessment. People who are excluded from making a refugee claim under the above two ineligibility provisions may be referred for a PRRA. The assessment is an administrative decision made by an IRCC officer, and it lacks the procedural safeguards of a formal refugee hearing. Unlike the Immigration and Refugee Board, it provides no right to an oral hearing—as required by the Supreme Court's Singh decision—nor does it provide a right to resources or expertise to properly evaluate a claim. There is a very real risk that people in need of protection will be quickly deported, only to face persecution and harm.

Third, on moratorium countries, individuals from countries like Haiti, Afghanistan and Venezuela, where Canada has suspended removals due to generalized [Technical difficulty—Editor]. They are granted temporary presence but denied fundamental rights and a pathway to permanent residency. Since a PRRA [Technical difficulty—Editor] order—which does not exist for this group—they are left in a perpetual state of uncertainty, unable to fully participate in or contribute to Canadian society.

Fourth are new powers to cancel documents and suspend and terminate applications. The bill gives the government sweeping new powers to cancel [Technical difficulty—Editor] documents for reasons of public interest, including permanent or temporary resident visas, work or study permits and [Technical difficulty—Editor]. The bill will allow the government to suspend new applications in a specific category, and suspend and terminate processing of applications already submitted, as a matter of public interest. This can include applications for permanent or temporary residence, or work or study permits.

These measures will create gaps and unexpected problems for affected people and lead to more people living precariously [Technical difficulty—Editor]. There will be a compounding effect of cutting them off from rights, entitlements and access to services, which will increase their vulnerability to exploitation and abuse by bad actors.

These are broad provisions, with no safeguards against the targeting and singling out of certain groups and potential unfair treatment and discrimination by the current or future governments. Several recent reports have highlighted the rise of racism and xenophobia against many different refugee and migrant groups, including international students from South Asia, specifically Indian students. This measure can potentially risk making these conditions worse.

Fifth is the disclosure of personal information. The bill allows the government to disclose personal information within the immigration department and federal government, as well as to share it with other orders of government, agencies and Crown corporations, and foreign entities. It weakens the protection of refugees' and immigrants' data by sharing information relating to their identity, status or immigration documents, and it could risk their safety if they are deported or when they must travel abroad.

Thank you. Again, I apologize for the bad sound.

The Chair Liberal Julie Dzerowicz

Thank you so much, Ms. Douglas.

I did give you a little extra time, since I know that we are not going to be able to ask you any questions. I will make sure that your remarks are distributed to everyone on the committee as well.

I, too, apologize for the sound issues. Thank you, particularly to our translators, for speaking so quickly. I know that was very quickly done.

We'll go to our first round of questions, which is for six minutes. Again, Ms. Douglas, sadly, I don't think we will be able to have you answer any, but if you would like to respond.... I'm not quite sure how we'll do it. If there are questions for Ms. Douglas, maybe you could ask the questions and we'll have Ms. Douglas write in her answers. We'll have them translated and, hopefully, get that to everyone by the end of the day on Wednesday, if possible. It's the best thing we can do.

For the rest, Mr. Weber, you are the man in the hot seat here, and I think there will be many questions for you.

First, we have Mr. Redekopp for six minutes.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Redekopp Conservative Saskatoon West, SK

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses today.

Mr. Weber, you spoke in your testimony about the “one-touch” system, and you talked about how there's little interaction with a human in that system. Are we talking about the machines where I put my stuff when I come across the border, back to Canada? Is that what you're talking about, or is this something different?

3:45 p.m.

National President, Customs and Immigration Union, Public Service Alliance of Canada

Mark Weber

It's a different system. Those would be PIK machines.

Previously, when refugee claimants arrived into the country, they had a full interview with an officer. Security screening was done there. That's changed to a system that's called “one-touch”. Essentially, we get tombstone data. We do some biometrics. The claimant is then allowed into the country to complete their security screening and such on their own through the one-touch system. They have, I believe, 45 days to submit that.

In essence, it means that to speed things up, because we're short-staffed, we're allowing people into the country without first doing that security screening—

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Redekopp Conservative Saskatoon West, SK

Hold on a second here. You're saying that a refugee claimant coming to Canada goes to a machine, says they want to be a refugee in Canada, hits a button and they're in the country. Is that what you're saying?

3:50 p.m.

National President, Customs and Immigration Union, Public Service Alliance of Canada

Mark Weber

It's not a machine; it's an application. They're given instructions on how to use the one-touch system. That connects directly with IRCC. They're given that documentation to complete on their own, once they're in the country. We're not doing that up front with them anymore.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Redekopp Conservative Saskatoon West, SK

Basically, they take out their phone, theoretically, and tap it a few times. They are now in the country as a refugee, accepted by our country.

3:50 p.m.

National President, Customs and Immigration Union, Public Service Alliance of Canada

Mark Weber

Yes. We get some basic data from them. Again, we do the biometrics. Beyond that, they're doing that on their own, yes.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Redekopp Conservative Saskatoon West, SK

There's no human interaction. Your members do not ask any questions. They don't confirm anything.

Is it a free-for-all into the country that way?

3:50 p.m.

National President, Customs and Immigration Union, Public Service Alliance of Canada

Mark Weber

There's very little. I don't know if I'd use the term “free-for-all”, but for the most part, it's self-declaration on the claimant's part, yes.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Redekopp Conservative Saskatoon West, SK

From your perspective and your members' perspective, this is not a good thing.

3:50 p.m.

National President, Customs and Immigration Union, Public Service Alliance of Canada

Mark Weber

This is a terrible thing.

Again, in my opening statement, I spoke about the human interaction. During the interview, we ask follow-up questions. That's how we establish whether there's coaching or whether it's a legitimate claim. That's how those files are built. It's so that they can be dealt with properly later. That's where we gain that intelligence. That's currently been lost.

That's not to mention the fact that about 10% never complete the forms through one-touch. You can figure, with about 100,000 claimants a year, that about 10,000 people who are allowed into Canada just disappear. Then it's our inland officers who have to find them and remove them. You're adding additional burdens down the road.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Redekopp Conservative Saskatoon West, SK

So 10,000 potential false claimants coming in through that system have to be removed. Wow.

Would it make sense from your perspective if...? When asylum claimants appear at the border, they don't necessarily have to give a reason why they want to claim asylum at that point. Is that true?

3:50 p.m.

National President, Customs and Immigration Union, Public Service Alliance of Canada

Mark Weber

Not a full reason, no.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Redekopp Conservative Saskatoon West, SK

Do you think it would be helpful if they did have to make that statement right away?

3:50 p.m.

National President, Customs and Immigration Union, Public Service Alliance of Canada

Mark Weber

Again, the devil is in the details. The key is allowing us to do the interview to get the full story and ask follow-up questions to judge and provide the proper information so that it can be dealt with later to determine whether it's a legitimate claim or not. That's what we're trained to do, and that's currently the part that has specifically been lost.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Redekopp Conservative Saskatoon West, SK

What would you think about not only doing that but also having that recorded so that it's clear what the answers were from the claimant? Would that be a helpful thing or not?

3:50 p.m.

National President, Customs and Immigration Union, Public Service Alliance of Canada

Mark Weber

I think it could be, yes.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Redekopp Conservative Saskatoon West, SK

Is it technically something that could possibly be done?

3:50 p.m.

National President, Customs and Immigration Union, Public Service Alliance of Canada

Mark Weber

Technically.... I mean, given what we see can be done now, I think so, yes.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Redekopp Conservative Saskatoon West, SK

That's interesting.

When the government did Bill C-12, did they ask for your or your members' input on this?

3:50 p.m.

National President, Customs and Immigration Union, Public Service Alliance of Canada

Mark Weber

No. They may have spoken with members. The CBSA may have spoken with members directly about some needs, but not that I know of. I was not spoken with.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Redekopp Conservative Saskatoon West, SK

You testified at the public safety committee a while back. Speaking about the culture of the senior leadership in the Government of Canada, you said that they have “chosen to focus entirely too much on the 'services' part of its name, at the expense of what should be its primary mission: ensuring the security of our border and protecting Canadian communities.”

I'm assuming you're talking about CBSA there.

3:50 p.m.

National President, Customs and Immigration Union, Public Service Alliance of Canada

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Brad Redekopp Conservative Saskatoon West, SK

I think we agree with that. If you look at Roxham Road, CBSA and RCMP officers became welcomers.

Do you believe that with the adoption of Bill C-12 the government will suddenly shift its general attitude away from servicing illegal border crossers to enforcing the law, or do you believe that this legislation is just another gift to Donald Trump from Mark Carney?