Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on Feb. 13th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

I open this meeting of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development of Tuesday, February 13, 2007.

Committee members, you have the orders of the day before you. This morning we'll be having a briefing on aboriginal housing. The witnesses today are from the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. We have Claire Dansereau, senior assistant deputy minister, social economic policy and regional operations. She is with Mr. Marc Brooks. We have Fred Caron, assistant deputy minister, office of the federal interlocutor.

We also have with us Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, represented by Sharon Matthews, vice-president of assisted housing; Deborah Taylor, director of aboriginal housing.

We also have the Health Canada, represented by Ian Potter, assistant deputy minister, first nations and Inuit health branch.

We'll begin with the brief that has been circulated, and then we'll get on to questions.

Welcome to our witnesses. Thank you very much for your time today. Who would like to start?

[Claire Dansereau, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Socio-economic Policy and Regional Operations, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Good morning.

I would like to thank the chair and committee members for the opportunity to speak on the subject of aboriginal housing.

Aboriginal people represent a very significant portion of the population. There are close to one million aboriginal Canadians including over 600,000 North American Indians, almost 300,000 Métis, and approximately 45,000 Inuit.

All Canadians need safe, decent, affordable housing, and it is well recognized that for aboriginal Canadians, this is all too often not the situation. The federal government's responsibility and involvement in aboriginal housing differs on and off reserve, and in territories.

On reserve, the Government of Canada makes significant contributions to support first nations to deliver housing. These expenditures total $261 million annually, including $138 million through Indian and Northern Affairs Canada and close to $123 million from Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation.

Although the federal government supports housing on reserve, this funding is not intended to cover the whole cost. First nations share in the responsibility of providing housing in their communities and are required to identify and obtain the necessary additional funding from other sources.

Off-reserve and in the territories, the provincial and territorial governments have the responsibility for housing.

The brief prepared for the standing committee chronicles the serious housing problems faced by aboriginal people. However, for all the challenges, there have been some real successes, and I would like take the next few minutes to share some of these with you.

Starting in 1996, a new federal policy framework for on-reserve housing gave first nations the flexibility to determine how INAC housing funds should be used. It encouraged first nations control, capacity development, shared responsibility such as shelter charges and ownership options, and better access to private capital. Over 80% of first nations participate in this new policy.

First nations that have pursued these directions are seeing the benefits. They have demonstrated that sound management practices that foster a positive climate for investment enable development of a full range of options, from social and market rental housing to home ownership.

For example, the Mohawks of the Bay of Quinte have produced housing for their members that not only is affordable but has garnered awards from the Ontario Home Builders' Association for the high quality of housing construction and energy efficiency of the homes. Thanks to a strong vision that was implemented by chief and council, over 80% of the homes on this first nation are owned by the occupants, many of whom have obtained loans from the first nation government through a revolving loan fund.

The Lac La Ronge Indian Band, located in a northern, semi-remote area of Saskatchewan, is fostering the creation of a market housing system by selling band-owned housing to first nation families. The sale prices are set at levels that are affordable for employed households. Maintenance of the homes becomes the responsibility of the new owners, many of whom are investing their own funds in renovations and additions.

For those homebuyers requiring loans, the band has made an arrangement with a chartered bank to provide home ownership financing that respects the traditional values of the community concerning communal ownership of the land. Meanwhile, the band is putting the proceeds of the sales toward the creation of new housing for low-income households.

In both of these examples, first nations recognized that they would not be able to resolve their housing shortfall by relying solely on government funding. Instead, they tapped into the resources available among community members to pay rent as well as to buy and maintain their own homes. By pooling the resources from government, the private sector, and community members, these and a number of other first nations have turned housing on-reserve from a liability into a community asset.

Over the last two years, there has been more federal funding for aboriginal housing, which is helping to support these positive trends. Budget 2005 provided $295 million over five years for on-reserve housing. This has not only increased the number of new houses built each year but has provided downpayment assistance to 2,000 families wishing to realize their dream of owning a home.

The 2006 federal budget provided one-time funding of $300 million through housing trusts to the territories as a strategic investment in affordable housing. It also included a $300 million off-reserve housing trust for provinces to increase the supply of rental housing and enhance aboriginal home ownership.

Off-reserve, there are success stories as well. Provincial chapters of the Canadian Real Estate Association in Alberta and Manitoba have worked alongside aboriginal families to acquire inner-city houses in poor repair and refurbish them for home ownership. In cities across Canada there are highly successful aboriginal non-profit and cooperative housing corporations providing good-quality housing for their residents.

Several colleges and other training facilities offer programs for aboriginal people to develop construction skills and enter the trades. And a number of aboriginal construction firms have been successful in stimulating economic development both on- and off-reserve.

Public-private partnerships have also been effective in creating aboriginal housing. The Kamloops Indian Band has used a public-private partnership arrangement with a developer to create the market-based, award-winning Sun Rivers development. The house values are now appreciating at levels equal to or better than similar houses in Kamloops, British Columbia.

It is also recognized that adequate infrastructure--roads, water, schools, and other community facilities--is required to accommodate any increase in housing development on-reserve and in remote and northern communities. Budget 2005 paired funding for housing with the lot servicing funding on-reserve, so that infrastructure was in place to ensure timely housing development.

Another promising development is the emergence in the last decade of several professional aboriginal associations in the two areas of finance and of building inspection, lands management, and housing management on-reserve. These networks actively support their members and each other, providing professional standards of governance and management in their communities. INAC and CMHC have been pleased to assist in funding the activities of these associations.

The Assembly of First Nations is in the process of examining market-based housing approaches on reserve, including a housing fund that could lever private sector investment and a centre of excellence to build housing management capacity at the first nations level. The Department of Indian and Northern Affairs considers these directions to be promising and was pleased to help in sponsoring an AFN forum on February 6 to 8 of this year for first nations representatives to discuss and consider these proposals.

The thrust of these new proposals is to help first nations move toward a continuum of market-based housing including social housing, rental housing and ownership, placing more emphasis on individual responsibility. This is consistent with the department's approach to fostering a broader continuum of housing for first nations.

In conclusion, we have a vision that aboriginal Canadians will have the same housing opportunities and responsibilities as other Canadians. We realize there is much left to be done, and through this statement I have shared what I believe are some promising avenues such as home ownership, capacity development and support for private investment that can bring the vision closer to reality.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Ms. Matthews is next.

[Sharon Matthews, Vice-President, Assisted Housing, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I appreciate this opportunity to share with you what CMHC does in the area of aboriginal housing. I will share some of the successes as well as speak a little bit about where we are headed.

As Canada's housing agency, CMHC has a mandate to improve housing conditions for all Canadians regardless of where they live. We fulfill our mandate through the provision of programs and research and by sharing expertise. The federal government, through CMHC, supports some 633,000 existing social housing units in Canada at a cost of nearly $2 billion annually. In addition, it supports new affordable housing supply through a $1 billion affordable housing initiative, and $128 million in annual federal funding is also being provided for CMHC's suite of renovation assistance programs.

In addition, the federal government, through CMHC, has a number of specialized housing-related programs and initiatives targeted to first nation on-reserve communities, specifically the on-reserve non-profit housing program and the residential rehabilitation assistance program and its related suite of programs, including the shelter enhancement program and home adaptations for seniors' independence.

Off-reserve and in the north, much of the funding CMHC receives for housing is administered by the provinces and territories. These off-reserve arrangements recognize that the provinces and territories have the primary responsibility for housing off-reserve and offer an efficient one-window approach to the provision of housing assistance. Provinces and territories are encouraged to direct some of this funding to aboriginal people.

l know this committee is interested in what CMHC has done since the Auditor General cited areas for improvement with regard to on-reserve housing programs in her 2003 report. l am pleased to report that CMHC has taken those recommendations seriously and responded in a manner that the Auditor General subsequently, in her 2006 follow-up report, found to be satisfactory.

For example, CMHC has proactively worked to improve the way in which we horizontally work with partners. We now have standing liaison committees at both the national and regional levels with active participation of INAC and first nation representatives, augmented by other departmental representatives--for example, Health Canada--as the need dictates.

The role of the committees is to oversee the delivery of housing initiatives in first nation communities, with a view to sharing best practices, troubleshooting where needed, reaching out to other partners to advance our mutual goals, and identifying areas for improvement and attention. In 2005, through the national liaison committee, we were able to develop an allocation formula to better distribute CMHC's social housing budgets for new housing units and renovation, using a needs-based model that recognizes the relative suitability and adequacy of housing in first nation communities. This action was in direct response to the AG's recommendation to better target housing resources to those in need.

One area cited in the 2003 Auditor General's report was found to be unsatisfactory in her 2006 follow-up. This was the problem of mould on-reserve. While she acknowledged the activities of each department and agency, including CMHC, in the areas of mould research, education, and training, she did indicate that a comprehensive plan for coordinating departmental efforts was needed.

In response the three departments, together with the Assembly of First Nations, have developed a draft comprehensive strategy, which was tabled with the clerk of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts in November 2006. While the plan is currently a draft in recognition of the role individual communities will play and of the need for more detailed consultation in the delivery of the plan, this does not mean that CMHC and our partners are standing still while these discussions are taking place.

For example, CMHC is continuing its technical research. We are active in information dissemination. Mould is a component of our housing quality training initiative. We also have the systems and practices in place to require new housing built under our non-profit housing program to be built to code and to be properly maintained, and our renovation assistance can help address mould in the process of bringing a home back to minimum health and safety standards.

CMHC also plays a significant role in capacity development, and I am pleased to say that these initiatives have supported positive change with regard to housing quality and mould. For example, under our housing quality initiative, we have entered into multi-year agreements with band councils. The band leadership commits to improve housing quality by building the skills and knowledge of their members, whether they are leaders, administrators, builders, renovators, or home occupants. We offer a series of 12 modules tailored for the various audiences. They cover a vast array of topics, including indoor air quality, better building practices, and renovation techniques.

Housing is not sustainable unless the occupants know how to maintain it. For that reason, we provide training for home occupants on how to properly maintain a home, addressing topics such as how to prevent and clean up mould.

CMHC's efforts are directed towards strengthening the entire housing system, be it at the sector, institutional, or individual level. For example, we have proactively supported the creation of national associations for two key housing functions: inspections and management. The First Nations National Building Officers Association, FNNBOA, is the result of several years' work with aboriginal inspectors. Currently more than 90% of the housing inspections on-reserve, in support of CMHC programs, are now performed by aboriginal inspectors under a fee-for-service arrangement.

Following in the footsteps of FNNBOA, I am pleased to report, Mr. Chairman, that the First Nations National Housing Managers Association received its letters of patent last week and held its official launch at the AFN conference in Toronto, at which more than 130 managers filled out applications to join. While the statistics clearly demonstrate that there are significant challenges faced by aboriginal people, there are important successes and material progress being made by some communities. At the heart of their success there is usually a community champion. Success is possible, and there are a growing number of examples that need to be shared so others can learn from their successes.

Finally, in terms of where we are going, for the past few years one of CMHC's objectives has been to facilitate market-based solutions on-reserve in a manner that respects the underlying communal ownership of the land. We have worked to facilitate an increase in private sector lending with our mortgage insurance products and have actively explained and promoted the concept of greater reliance on the private market. We've customized training sessions for communities on the merits of home ownership, explained how our mortgage insurance products can assist, and worked to encourage the sharing of successes in this area. We believe that the more we can do to facilitate market solutions for those who can afford it while retaining support for those who cannot, the more first nations communities can benefit from the economic benefits of housing that most other Canadians enjoy.

Thank you again for the opportunity this afternoon. We look forward to any questions you might have.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

We'll go to Mr. Potter.

[Ian Potter, Assistant Deputy Minister, First Nations and Inuit Health Branch, Department of Health]

Mr. Chairman, I'm pleased to be here today before this committee to discuss Health Canada's role with respect to housing on-reserve and the actions we've taken subsequent to the Auditor General's report.

The first nations and Inuit health branch is responsible for a number of health services for first nations and Inuit. We provide public health services on reserve, south of the 60th parallel. We provide primary care on a number of isolated reserves. And we fund the provision of supplementary health services, including pharmaceuticals, dental care, and vision care, for status Indians and Inuit.

In communities north of the 60th parallel, the territorial governments are responsible for public health as the result of territorial transfer agreements on universal health care services. For reserves south of the 60th parallel, Health Canada inspects houses from a public health perspective at the request of the communities. In cases where a health hazard is identified, Health Canada advises the occupants, chief and council, and maintenance personnel, as appropriate, on remedial actions that should be taken to protect public health. Health Canada also promotes the broad concept of healthy housing through awareness education activities in the community.

Healthy housing is defined by the World Health Organization as a place that protects privacy, contributes to physical and psychological well-being, and supports the development and social integration of its inhabitants. Healthy housing is a comprehensive concept that takes into consideration a variety of factors contributing to the quality of housing and housing environments, such as adequate basic infrastructure, adequate space, and a quality of neighbourhood that promotes social interactions through the provision of diverse public places for residents.

Following the Auditor General's report of 2003, Chapter 6: “Federal Government Support to First Nations—Housing on Reserves”, Health Canada formed a Healthy Housing Working Group to coordinate the work of the branch. In addition we conducted a literature review entitled “Housing as a Determinant of the Health of Aboriginal Canadians”. This was to provide all those involved in housing with the best information available that links health and housing. The findings from this review of research and evaluation studies are not surprising to those who have worked in the area but have confirmed that: increasing occupant density of housing is associated with increased risks of respiratory illness; inadequate water and sanitation increases risks of enteric infections; even though scientific evidence available at this time indicates that mould exposure alone does not appear to cause asthma, mould found in indoor air is associated with decreased lung function and increased frequency of respiratory symptoms; and that mould remediation without attention to environmental tobacco smoke, pet dander and other allergens is unlikely to significantly decrease asthma symptoms.

Health Canada also recognized that an improved information system was needed to keep track of inspection and other activities so that we can better analyze information at a regional and national level. Health Canada has now developed an environmental health information system and expects to be able to better identify problems and patterns of concern. This information system is expected to complement the information that can be generated from INAC's database.

Since appearing before the Standing Committee on Public Accounts in June 2006, Health Canada has worked with INAC, CMHC, and the Assembly of First Nations to draft a strategy to address mould in first nations communities. The strategy builds on education and training already under way to increase the technical expertise among first nations to prevent and address mould problems. It will also provide advice and guidance in the rehabilitation of the affected housing stock and improving construction practices.

The strategic directions in this strategy document include building awareness and capacity to deal with mould through education and training, providing guidance and support to the communities in prevention and remediation of mould in existing housing, preventing mould in new first nations housing, identifying communities with significant mould problems, and building awareness and support for the strategy through proactive communications.

The strategy is a work in progress, as we are still in discussions with first nations. According to the draft strategy, Health Canada will develop and lead a health promotion campaign and monitor the impact of the implementation. The health promotion campaign will encourage communities and occupants to do what is necessary to minimize mould in their homes. We'll aim at changing attitudes and behaviour of the occupants with respect to home maintenance.

In preparation for such a campaign, we are gathering information on the target audience's awareness, attitudes, and behaviour surrounding mould and indoor air quality issues in the household. The overall objective of this research is to establish a baseline against which the health promotion campaign and social marketing results can be measured. The campaign is expected to occur in the next fiscal year. We'll bring together national and regional representatives of the three organizations here, as well as the AFN, to make sure we have developed a campaign that meets the needs of the audience.

After the campaign is launched, we will monitor the impacts and revise our approach. Health Canada's efforts will be complemented by a CMHC strategy to share best practice and success stories with first nations communities. Health Canada is also working with CMHC in reviewing existing training packages to ensure that the CMHC's housing quality training courses and Health Canada's efforts in increasing public awareness of mould and indoor air quality are consistent. We'll bring together our environmental health officers, first nations building inspectors, and technical service providers to review current inspections, to be sure that public health aspects are covered in training material.

Health Canada is working with INAC, CMHC, and the AFN to more fully develop the data on the extent of mould at the community. For example, through inspections upon request, Health Canada is gaining information on communities with mould problems.

Health Canada will continue to work with CMHC and INAC to support first nations communities and organizations in improving the planning and management of housing and enabling first nations to enjoy the benefits of healthy housing.

Mr. Chairman, thank you very much for this opportunity.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Thank you very much for that presentation.

Committee members, I could ask the research staff to provide that draft report on mould strategy. It was tabled with the public accounts committee in November. Would you like a copy of that?

[An hon. member]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

I would instruct the clerk to supply that to the committee members if she could, please.

We'll start our questioning with the Liberal side. Madam Neville.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I'm going to ask a few questions upfront. I know my colleagues have a number of questions, so if I have time, I will share with Mr. Bagnell.

I'm struck. As I'm listening, you all seem to be doing a great deal in the area of housing for aboriginal peoples, both on-reserve and off-reserve, but we seem to be making very little progress. And the needs seem to be growing daily. I will ask what each of you identifies as the most urgent need to address the very severe housing challenges we see for aboriginal people, both on- and off-reserve. That would be my first question.

My second question is to CMHC, Ms. Matthews. I would be interested in knowing more about the market-driven housing.

I will ask all of you how the whole notion of fee simple is entering into your discussions as it relates to housing on reserve.

I'll leave it at that for the moment. I have a lot of questions.

[Claire Dansereau]

-Only one question was addressed to us, and I will attempt to answer it.

Obviously you're right, we are very busy, and it looks like we're not making much progress. I think part of the problem is that there's a very significant population growth, and as we run, we can't quite catch up.

There are different approaches to housing, and there's a different level of capacity, unequal capacity, across the country. We tend to take approaches that work in general, but they don't necessarily work on specifics. We're running to catch up on that one as well.

I don't think our work is near completion, but it will continue, and I see progress. You heard some hope in what we talked about today. I think there is real progress in terms of the growth and capacity of first nations. It sometimes tends to spiral upwards as more people know and the more that knowledge is shared.

For us, I think we need to keep up with the population and make sure that as there are more elders, they are protected as well. We tend to focus on the youth a lot, but we also need to protect and work with the elders in the community and to try to work with that.

There's an ancillary problem with the difference in size of the communities we work with. Some solutions that might work for the Kamloops first nations might not work for the Shamattawa in northern Manitoba. Trying to come up with solutions that work, in consultation with first nations, for the varying types of communities is an equal challenge.

[Sharon Matthews]

I'll just add a little bit to Claire's answer to the question on most urgent needs.

Certainly CMHC focuses on three real components. We're very active in capacity development and investment in institutions and training and development for aboriginals to work better work to solve their issues. We obviously have certain programs that we want to deliver and we want to make sure those are delivered well. We build to code. We make sure we follow up. We want to make sure that in what we do and what we put on the ground we do well.

The other area--and it leads into your second question, which was directed to me--is a real emphasis on the market side in terms of how we can assist. We know that government won't be able to solve all the problems, and through market-based housing there are opportunities for different communities to perhaps better solve some of their own problems. What we're trying to do is find solutions for those who can afford other solutions in the market, while making sure programs are in place to help those in need.

Specifically to your question in terms of the type of market housing solutions we have, first of all, you have the traditional ministerial loan guarantee that's been in place with INAC for years. Through that initiative, CMHC will provide mortgage insurance. We don't charge a premium on that, as we do with our commercial operations, because we're not taking a risk; it is a ministerial loan guarantee. But by being the party in between, once that ministerial loan guarantee's in place, an off-reserve private sector lender can lend money and not be concerned in terms of the security issues under the Indian Act and their ability to get the covenant and the asset. In addition, there are private lenders out there who are innovative in trying different things. Certainly in our conversations with them we've encouraged them to be doing that. I'll give you a couple of examples.

You have a few lenders out there who are doing, without any band guarantee, 75% loan-to-value lending. They're taking the risk. Now, typically what these banks will do is set an overall cap on the capital that they're willing to invest in terms of lending on the reserves, but they're going to try it without having that credit enhancement, whether it's a ministerial loan guarantee or whatever else.

There's another program that a couple of banks are trying right now--and these private sector arrangements, by the way, are very limited; they're targeted to very select bands and individuals. But the other one out there right now that I could use as an example would be the 80-20. What happens is that a private sector lender will go in and set up an arrangement with a band. They'll select the band; they'll make sure they're comfortable with the financial sophistication of that band. They'll go in and say they're willing to go to 95% lending on-reserve for one or however many of the members, but they want to enter a risk sharing arrangement where the bank will take an 80% risk and the band will take a 20% risk.

So the bank is going in at a higher loan to value on the understanding that there's an agreement in place between the bank and the band to pay that 20%. Now, of course, because of the way assets are held, should that arrangement not work out, that lender would have no legal recourse to those assets. So if the band failed to live up to its obligations, there is no way that bank could deal with that. Again, this is why lenders typically will put a cap in terms of how much capital they're willing to put at risk in that context.

In addition, CMHC in the last couple of years has developed a different risk sharing arrangement from the ones I've described. It basically is a pilot initiative whereby what we would do is enter into an agreement with a band, much like the banks enter an agreement. We set up a trust off-reserve to hold a certain amount of capital, and under those circumstances we would do more traditional mortgage insurance lending. The member who would be borrowing the funds would pay the normal fees and premiums, like any Canadian off-reserve.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

We're out of time, unfortunately.

We move on to the Bloc, please. Mr. Lemay.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Good morning and thank you for being here with us.

When we started talking about doing a housing study and received the documents, I was not altogether certain, both personally and on behalf of the Bloc Québécois, that it was justified. A very nice document was prepared, which we received from the Library of Parliament thanks to Ms. Hurley. It is a study on aboriginal housing.

I do not know if the people present occupied the same positions in 1992 as they do today. In any case, the Conservatives will not be able to accuse the Liberals of having done nothing on this issue. The Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs tabled a report in December 1992 that included 14 recommendations. I will read you recommendation No. 7.

The Committee recommends that the Government of Canada address immediately the health and safety deficiencies of aboriginal and northern housing. These communities must have indoor water supplies, indoor plumbing, adequate sewage disposal systems, and adequate fire protection services.

I will also read you recommendation No. 8, which is intended for the CMHC:

Building codes, design requirements, and material and labour specifications must be more flexible in order to permit the type of housing which meets the needs of aboriginal and northern communities and utilizes local resources.

Would you like to hear some more similar ones? Personally, I am not proud of the situation. We are not going to begin studies that will produce no results. I know as well as you do that there has been a population explosion in these communities over the last 15 years. We are told that tobacco use will likely cause health problems. Within the scope of these studies, no one understood that there was a housing problem in the aboriginal communities, because there were too many people in the houses. Could anyone answer me and state that indeed there are too many people in the houses and that $300 million or $400 million more per year are needed? That is what I would have liked to have heard today.

I won't go any further. In fact, we may just be carrying out a study producing the same reports and the same recommendations as 15 years ago. Give me an example, a single one, that proves to me that these recommendations have been followed, and tell me what the situation is today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Madam Dansereau.

[Claire Dansereau]

Of course, I was not in my division in 1992. I think that any study would reveal unacceptable situations. That will always be the case. It happens in the non-aboriginal world as well. I am not saying that this is excusable.

The fact remains that for us, it is impossible to say whether the situation then and the situation now are exactly the same, without having that specific knowledge. In my opinion, improvements have been made, and we are all continuing to improve our efforts.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Listen to this, this was the second recommendation in the 1992 report. We are talking about 1992!

The Committee recommends that the government distribute all the funding for aboriginal housing through a single department or agency.

In the recommendations, this is called “Aboriginal Housing: A Time for Action”, by Mr. Schneider. The recommendation appears at tab 17 in the binder we were given. Fifteen years later, there are still three agencies and two departments involved with aboriginal housing. The Auditor General has said that this was not right. I would simply like to know if there have been any improvements. Will the CMHC be the only agency responsible for aboriginal housing? Will the money be transferred in full to the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs, or, will we carry on in this way for centuries and centuries? Amen.

I'm frustrated, and I hope that this can be seen and heard. I have no other questions, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Madam Crowder, please.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for coming in for your presentation today.

I'm going to echo Monsieur Lemay's frustration. I was interested to see comments around personal responsibility in this document. I was in a home last summer that was absolutely spotlessly clean; you could have eaten off the floor. But on the outside of the house there was tin covering rotten floor boards that a contractor, who'd been in a couple of years ago looking at the house, didn't repair. He just nailed tin over top of them. We had to leap from the stairs of the front porch into the house because the boards were so rotten that the stairs pulled away. The house was absolutely spotless, but in the bathroom there was a piece of plywood over the floor so you didn't fall through the floorboards. In the second bedroom there was mould growing up the wall and over the ceiling. It wasn't an overcrowded house, which was unusual. The grandmother and her partner lived there, and occasionally the grandchildren stayed there. They would sleep in the living room so they weren't exposed to the mould.

This woman kept the house spotless, so tell me about personal responsibility.

In the Auditor General's report of 2003--and I think we come to some fundamental issues here--she talks about the fact that there are some fundamental differences in who has responsibility for what. She talks about the basic challenges with roles and responsibilities. Then in CMHC's report, “Aboriginal Housing Background Paper” draft, November 2004, it seems that the underlying problem comes down to the federal perspective that the Government of Canada does not recognize universal entitlement to government-financed housing as either a treaty or an aboriginal right, on- or off-reserve. It says, “However, housing challenges faced by aboriginal people greatly exceed those experienced by other Canadians. Consequently, the federal government has an interest in improving the socio-economic conditions for all aboriginal people regardless of location.”

So in that context, and given that we've heard from Statistics Canada that there's a growing crisis around housing, I wonder if any of you would care to comment on whether or not you see first nations, Métis, and Inuit peoples as having a fundamental human right to housing that other Canadians in this country expect as a right. Do you agree that first nations, Métis, and Inuit people have a human right to housing? If you do, what challenges do you see will face the government if they actually pass Bill C-44, repealing section 67? What's your estimate of what kinds of human rights complaints we might see filed against the federal government for its failure to provide adequate housing in this country?

Take it away.

[Claire Dansereau]

As stated in my notes, the federal government views that all Canadians have a right to a certain quality of housing--

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Would you live with your children or grandchildren in some of the housing on-reserve currently?

[Claire Dansereau]

We are working across the departments with the funds that are available to work with the first nations to change the situation to the best of our ability.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Let's try to keep away from personal questions and just look at the department.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

So would anybody else in the department live in this housing? We've had cases in British Columbia. People probably remember the great Emery Barnes, who took up the challenge of living on welfare just to demonstrate how inadequate it was. We are living in one of the wealthiest countries in the world, yet we accept conditions here that, I would argue, not one of us sitting at this table would be prepared to live in--not one of us. I would like to see anybody volunteer at this table to live in some of the conditions that people are living in.

We now have international people focusing attention on Canada because of our lack of willingness to address this serious issue. Monsieur Lemay is absolutely right, it is not a new problem, and we continue to tinker at the edges. I'm just wondering how we address the failure to have adequate housing in this country. It's not that we don't have the information.

Maybe the question then is, what is preventing us, stopping us, from addressing this issue? How about that? That's not personal. Does anybody want to take a stab at that one? Is it money? Is it political will? Is it resources? What is it? Why can't we address this?

[Claire Dansereau]

Obviously I don't have the answer. I can't pretend to have the answer, and I can't pretend that what you're describing doesn't exist in certain circumstances. I don't have the data that says what the situation was in 1992.

I can tell you--and you may choose not to believe this--that the people I work with on a day-to-day basis spend all of their time worrying about those exact solutions and working with the first nations communities themselves to come up with solutions that are respectful of their decision-making processes and recognize that it will take time. That may not be good enough as an answer, but I can tell you that people are trying very hard to come up with those solutions.

I think there has been progress, and we can take some baseline data to compare the situation now with that in 1992. I suspect there will have been some progress made in some areas and not in other areas.