Madam Quinn.
Evidence of meeting #7 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was report.
Evidence of meeting #7 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was report.
Mary Quinn Director General, Strategic Policy and Devolution Branch, Northern Affairs, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development
Thank you for the question.
In terms of what the department is doing on the food mail program, as the Auditor General indicated, her office first recommended in 2002 that we review the entry points, and at this point the report is indicating that we've so far reviewed only one entry point.
In 2002 we indicated we would review entry points on a case-by-case basis.—that's where we saw evidence of situations that concerned us about the quality of the food, or in which the ability to reduce prices because of the program was perhaps not being passed on. We indicated we would review entry points on a case-by-case basis, but we also indicated that our priority really was around the base budget for the program.
The funding of the program hasn't changed since 2002 and 2003, but the costs of the program go up because it's being used and because of such things as fuel. As the AG's office said, look at those costs and look at the entry points as one area to see what can be done about the costs.
What we've concentrated on is the pilot projects that were mentioned. The reason we're working primarily on the pilot projects at this point is to get more evidence to allow for evidence-based decision-making on the base budget of the program. Our sense is that once we have an idea of how the program can be more sustainable in terms of funding, then we can look at other issues, such as entry points, nutrition education, and retail promotion, because you could get the food up there, but if there aren't related programs or initiatives around it showing people about the food—what to do with it, and how it's displayed on shelves—it's.... There are a couple of things to be looked at in the program.
What we're doing, in a nutshell, is to take the results of these three pilot projects and take the results of a review of the entry point at Churchill, and we are developing a package of options for it. This will advise the minister on how he wishes to move forward on the program.
Conservative
Conservative
Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
My question is very simple. Concerning mould, you suggest that the committee follow up on the work it has undertaken. Do you think it would be useful to identify a lead organization among the three departments, so that progress can be made? If yes, which department should take the initiative and spearhead the work recommended by the committee?
Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
In our opinion, it is important that one of the three departments be responsible for the work as a whole, but we would hesitate to identify one. It is incumbent upon the government to do that.
Conservative
Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC
You may answer my next question in the same way.
In your report, you mention two difficulties with regard to Indian and Northern Affairs Canada, the first being the fact that the department has conflicting missions: it must on the one hand provide services, and on the other, act as negotiator. What do you recommend to Indian and Northern Affairs Canada so that it can better accomplish its first mission, which is to help the first nations?
The second difficulty relates to enabling the act for the department's programs, an act which is obsolete. How could the government facilitate the department's work?
Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
With regard to the sometimes conflicting roles of the department, we think that the department must be aware of them and take the necessary measures to avoid conflicts of interest or even the perception of conflicts of interest. It is up to the department to manage this issue to organize itself in the best possible way and to avoid any appearance of conflicts of interest.
Conservative
Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC
Could the provision of services and the department's role as negotiator be separated?
Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
That is certainly a possibility. I am under the impression — and the representatives of the department may want to discuss it — that there is within the department distinct groups that play different roles.
Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
The department should however be even more aware of the problem.
Could you help me recall your second question?
Conservative
Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
We noted that there was no legislative basis for the issue of medication. That matter should be reviewed with representatives from Health Canada. Such a legislative basis could eliminate a good part of the work the department must do to obtain letters of consent. There might be other ways of proceeding.
Conservative
Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC
I would like to come back to the question I asked earlier concerning accountability. We know that there are a large number of reports and that this imposes a heavy burden on small communities. We are talking about 150 reports. Do you feel that the information provided allows the department to ensure that funds are really used in the way they were intended to be?
Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
That is a question the department must answer. In several of our reports, we indicated that there weren't sufficient analyses and that there were certain anomalies. For instance, in the field of education, certain costs seemed very high, and the department could not provide any explanations. Obtaining information is important, but analyzing it is even more important.
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
In your speaking notes I noticed that one of the things you talked about was establishing and involving first nations institutions to carry out program goals. It seems that is an underpinning of successful programs. I don't know if you might wish to comment.
This may be more of a comment, but recently there was a request for information--I think it was an RFI--on having a claims benefit process for first nations that's currently delivered under Health Canada's non-insured health benefits program going out to the broader public, though it's currently delivered by a first nations organization. That seems to fly in the face of the recommendation that you're making to support having first nations organizations actually deliver programs.
I don't know if you can comment on that.
Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
That question would probably be better addressed to the departmental representative, because we haven't looked at that specific contract. It is an issue on which they might be able to provide more information .
NDP
Jean Crowder NDP Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC
I wonder if the department could comment on it, given the context of recommending that first nations organizations should be the ones to deliver, and here we are going outside.
Conservative
Ian Potter Assistant Deputy Minister, First Nations and Inuit Health Branch, Department of Health
Yes.
I think you're referring to a contract we're in the process of providing to a private organization. There is a current contract right now, which is being operated by a company called First Canadian Health, and it provides the processing of the pharmaceutical and dental benefits the government pays for. It's a fairly large contract, in the hundreds of millions of dollars, and it follows the procedures the government and the Department of Public Works have set out for major government contracts. Those are that the government should get value for money, an efficient service, and the provision, which is in the Public Works guidance or procurement, that when a contract is primarily targeted at aboriginal organizations, there is a provision within that contract for an aboriginal benefit. There are two provisions in that policy. One is called the “set aside” in which the contract can only be competed by firms that are aboriginal-owned. And the second is a provision that allows for the contract to specify certain benefits that whoever wins a contract will have to provide to aboriginal people.
In examining that--and the government has not made its final decision with respect to how to proceed with that contract--we have been conducting information sessions with corporations that may be interested in bidding. What we have observed is that given the specialized nature of this contracting business, there are very few aboriginal-owned corporations that are able to do this. The current corporation that does it, First Canadian Health, has a large subcontract with another corporation, ESI, which does much of the work.
Therefore in considering how to proceed, one of the options we've put out for getting feedback from industry was the possibility of requiring something like a 20% benefit to aboriginal people from that contract, but that the bidders would not necessarily be corporations that were owned by an aboriginal person or persons. That is what we are in the process of doing at the moment.
