Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on May 29th, 2006

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Thank you.

My question could be addressed to Ms. Fraser as well as to the representatives of Indian and Northern Affairs Canada.

Mr. Lemay was mentioning earlier that in spite of the new housing, the occupants of certain existing housing were grappling with mould problems. In some cases this can be related to maintenance problems or the difficulty first nations members have with the upkeep of their homes.

Housing is a crucial issue for communities. Do you think there are mechanisms which could allow us to see to it that the housing stock be kept in better condition? I know that there are various types of properties in the communities. Perhaps you could provide us with some details on this?

[Sheila Fraser]

Several factors contribute to the mould problems. Maintenance is of course one of them, as is lifestyle, but overcrowding is another. This last factor is important. Education programs on these issues are already in existence, among others at the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, if memory serves. I am sure that Mr. LeBlanc could give you more details in this regard.

[Paul LeBlanc]

I agree. There has to be interventions at several different levels. There are some things that only the occupants of the houses can do. People must be well-informed and know how to detect real or potential signs of mould very early. They must be able to recognize these factors and know what to do to prevent, if not to correct, the appearance of mould very early in the process. Of course, that requires training and information. For a few years, this has been a priority. One or two years ago, the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation devised training programs in the field for 150 communities. This training will be given to at least 60 other communities in the course of the coming year. We cooperate with the CMHC and coordinate our efforts with those of the corporation to develop documentation and to ensure that it is available everywhere. Regional Health Canada officers visit the communities and provide advice to the citizens on health care and the prevention of conditions that can have adverse effects on their health.

So there are several factors. We were talking about codes earlier. We have to improve constructions standards to ensure the integrity of housing and reduce its vulnerability to the problem we are discussing. We must also improve first nations' capacity to manage their housing. The department is actively investing in these areas. We have to approach this issue from several different directions. That is what we are doing. We accept the Auditor General's recommendation which says that we have to better integrate our efforts and improve the coordination of our strategy. We intend to do so and to accelerate things over the next few months.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Thank you.

Madam Crowder.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

I just wanted to make a comment about housing. I didn't hear the words “shoddy construction”, and there are certainly some houses that are very poorly constructed, with inappropriate ventilation and all of those kinds of things. So I think that's an important factor.

Also, I think the fact of overcrowding is significant, in that there are often not the funds to build adequate numbers of houses for people living on reserve. As well, my understanding of it is that there isn't sufficient recognition in the funding formulas to allow for different conditions in different parts of the country—like the north, for example—which contributes to the overcrowding. As well, many houses do not have access to running water or electricity. So you've got a very complex problem that requires that integrated solution.

I wanted to ask Ms. Fraser two quick things about third-party management. I was quite surprised that some of the bands are still in third-party management some years after they were originally put into it. I wonder if you could comment on that specifically. What is it that gets in the way of having people move from third-party management back to self-sufficiency?

The second piece is your comment on the Indian Act being an outdated piece of legislation. You specifically cited provincial legislation on housing, education, and health and safety. Do you see specific areas where federal legislation is required in areas like housing, education, health, and safety?

[Sheila Fraser]

On third-party management, I think I'll let Mr. Campbell take that one.

[Ronnie Campbell]

In relation to third-party management, we found in our audits that there is a need for the third-party manager to have an exit plan. There's got to be a concept of building capacity and having a plan right from the start, in terms of how does a third-party manager get out and leave the first nation with the capacity and the wherewithal to manage their own situations. So that's the big thing that was missing at the time.

In terms of the second part of the question, I think Ms. Fraser is going to answer that.

[Sheila Fraser]

On the legislation, the point we were trying to make is that the Indian Act is obviously a very old piece of legislation. A lot of developments over time have come in, in provinces or elsewhere, that obviously aren't reflected in the Indian Act. I go back to the one on water standards. We're dealing with issues today as communities that I don't think people would even have conceived of at the time of the Indian Act. So there could be and I would say there probably is need for a legislative base for us to address certain issues.

But I would go back again to the question of building the institutions and the framework and the base for first nations communities, and building the capacity. Legislation could be one way. Legislation at least helps to define roles and responsibilities, and that's another area where we've noted in many of our audits that the roles and responsibilities are not clear—housing is a good example—and if there were a legislative base, it would help to clarify them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Actually, it's the government's turn, but I'm going to allow Ms. Karetak-Lindell a question.

[Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Liberal, Nunavut, NU]

Thank you very much.

I want to make a clarification. I heard through the interpretation—I think it was when Mr. Lévesque was speaking—that Inuit were tax-exempt on certain things, and I don't believe that's true. Inuit pay taxes like everyone else. Unless that was something I caught in the interpretation.... Inuit are not tax-exempt, just for clarification.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Who said that?

[Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Liberal, Nunavut, NU]

When Mr. Lévesque was speaking, I heard it through the interpretation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Okay.

[Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Liberal, Nunavut, NU]

Anyway, on the food mail program's entry points, I'm very much in support of the pilot projects that are going on. But of course we have been lobbied by different groups asking that these pilot projects be in every northern community, and I know the expense that would be involved in that. How can we make sure at least that there is some equality in the program and access to the program?

The other clarification I want to get is this. if you're talking about Churchill as being reviewed as an entry point, I don't believe it is an entry point at this point in time. That's what the review was about: to see whether it could be added as an entry point. I was home recently and paid $1.92 for one large orange, and I kept thinking that we can't be on the food mail program if I'm paying $1.92 for one orange. I don't believe Churchill, or any place in Manitoba, is an entry point yet. Is that correct?

[Sheila Fraser]

That response would best be given by the department.

[Mary Quinn]

Churchill currently is an entry point. One of the reasons we were looking at Churchill was that there were concerns about the price and quality of some of the foods coming out of those areas. There were meetings over the past year with retailers and airlines and communities to look at different ways food could be delivered. They looked at options around Thompson and around Winnipeg and started putting together some of the costs associated with moving that entry point south, or using Thompson. We'll be taking that analysis and looking at the broad issue of what to do with the results of the pilot projects and how to move the program forward.

[Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Liberal, Nunavut, NU]

That means not every community is eligible for it, then, right?

[Mary Quinn]

I could get the information to you quite quickly, but there are five communities, I believe, that are served out of Churchill at the current time in the Kivalliq region.

[Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Liberal, Nunavut, NU]

Then there must be some communities not served, because there are seven.

Okay, thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

Could I just add to that question, Madam Quinn? Do you have a level of selection of the food items? I lived in the north for a number of years, and we didn't expect to have peaches in the middle of winter. I'm wondering whether you have some sort of guideline of what is an acceptable selection.

[Mary Quinn]

Yes, we do, Mr. Chairman. We have it on our website, and we have pamphlets that outline the foods that are eligible. There is the option of bringing up some foods—particularly heavy, non-perishable foods—to communities that have sealift, but we have what we call a list of eligible perishable foods, such as fruit, milk, vegetables, meat. There is a refinement of that list for what we call highly perishable foods, and there are other essential items. So we do outline for people what is eligible and what isn't.

[The Chair, Conservative, Colin Mayes]

I'm going to let Mr. Alghabra ask a question now. He's the only one who hasn't had a question and I'll give him that opportunity now because we're running out of time.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Madam Fraser, thank you so much for coming, and I want to congratulate you and your team on the excellent, professional, and objective work you've been doing.

You've listed seven critical factors and when asked to prioritize three you picked sustained management attention, coordination of government programs, and meaningful consultation. I find the fourth one is a really interesting one, which is developing capacity within first nations. Could you elaborate a little on that issue and maybe share with us some of the best practices you've seen, if any? Perhaps the department could say whether it has any plans or programs on carrying or building on those best practices.

[Sheila Fraser]

Thank you.

We agree absolutely that this is one of the most critical success factors. I think in every audit that we have done, as I mentioned, we have received excellent cooperation from first nations communities. We have tried to show examples of where programs are being implemented successfully and where the first nations, in many cases, have even done innovative practices to try to improve the program. In housing, for example, I remember in a report there were examples of communities that had started almost a rental program; others had tried to get funding themselves to increase the stock of housing. On economic development there were are also good examples. I can think of communities that have a 20-year plan and they know exactly where they are in their 20-year plan.

There are a lot of good examples out there, but it's important that the overall capacity, even though there are those examples, be raised. I think we have to realize that many of these communities are very small. To do the delivery of all these programs is very onerous for a community of 200 or 300 people when you have to be responsible for education, social welfare, health. The skill set that is required to deliver these programs is varied and often very specialized.

I'd say we've seen a number of good examples. I think every report will talk about them, but I think there has to be recognition that the capacity overall needs to be strengthened if we expect these programs to be delivered successfully.

I don't know whether the department would like to add anything more.