Evidence of meeting #7 for Indigenous and Northern Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was report.
Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
So if we put funds into a bank account, we'll have to borrow to do it. I think the idea has always been that we will use the cash when it actually is known and when the payments have to be made.
Conservative
Liberal
Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL
Good afternoon. My name is Todd Russell. I'm a member of Parliament for Labrador.
It's quite a dynamic area. We have a large population of Métis, Inuit, and Innu in my riding, and of course we have first nations within that particular context, or reserve-based people. Then we have a whole list of other descriptors that aboriginal people sometimes get tagged with.
I'm not trying to take away from the importance of exactly what you're doing here, but there's a strong first nations focus--which there should be and is necessary--and the mandate of the Government of Canada is for aboriginal peoples beyond just first nations and the particular institutions that have formed around first nations. Did the audit look at the government's programs and responsibilities vis-à-vis Inuit and Métis?
Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Our work to date has largely been on first nations and programming for on-reserve. We are planning to do some work for Inuit within the next two years, and we will be looking at issues that are more specific to them. The Métis, if we do some work, would be after that. So yes, this is largely focused on first nations on reserve.
Liberal
Todd Russell Liberal Labrador, NL
Just to follow up with that, the Auditor General's report is a good tool, of course, and it sometimes does drive improvements in the lives of aboriginal people. I know you have certain parameters you have to work within, but I think it's important that there's also a holistic view of what the department is responsible for and what the Government of Canada is responsible for.
You see where I'm coming from. If your recommendations strive.... And we will certainly do what we can to move some of your recommendations forward and hold the government to account, whether it's for mould in houses or the food mail program, but if you have to wait five years for another audit to come out on other aboriginal people.... This is only one tool, I realize that, but I would just like to stress that it is important in the lives of aboriginal people.
I have just two other questions. Have you done any assessment of the impact of litigation versus negotiation on the quality of life of aboriginal people? I was an aboriginal leader for ten years. I've often found that the Department of Indian Affairs can be very litigious. I understand fully your comment about the conflict that aboriginal people sometimes have; they say, “You're supposed to be to helping me, but at the same time you're forcing me to go to court to defend my rights and interests”.
Aboriginal organizations dole out tens of millions of dollars for litigation and lawyers, while we're not addressing what we should be addressing, which is housing, non-insured health benefits, and those types of things.
Maybe I can make a suggestion: that in the future, one area that could be looked at is how the process itself is really having an impact. I believe that this relationship issue is foundational and fundamental to how well we're going to do in the future with our aboriginal peoples in Canada. Has any assessment like that been done?
Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
We wouldn't do the kind of assessment work that Mr. Russell is proposing, because it would get into more of an evaluation kind of role, which we don't do. We would probably consider some of those elements, though, in work we will be doing on treaties.
I should perhaps just explain that for all of the work we do, we have advisory committees and panels that help us set strategic direction within the office. We have a panel for first nations, and we also now have a panel for Inuit issues. Certainly the first nations have brought forward the whole treaty issue--the negotiation, the respective treaties, the implementation of treaties--as being a major one. We will be doing more work in that area in the coming years so some of that may come into that work, but we wouldn't do an evaluation or an analysis per se. The department might do that kind of work.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes
You have only 30 seconds left.
I know that Madam Karetak-Lindell had a question.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes
Then we'll move on to the government, five minutes for questions.
The order is first the Liberals, the government for five minutes, and then the Bloc for five minutes. I have it right here.
Government, please.
Conservative
Harold Albrecht Conservative Kitchener—Conestoga, ON
Mr. Chairman, thank you, and thanks to Ms. Fraser for being here.
I'm totally convinced that everybody who sits around this table has the best interests of our aboriginal peoples at heart, and that's why we've chosen to serve on this committee.
I certainly agree with Mr. Lemay that we don't want this report and its good recommendations to simply sit here gathering dust and come back to it five years from now to find that nothing has been done.
As I look through the number of issues you identified here, on 15 of which you felt there was unsatisfactory progress, there's obviously a failure to comply with some of the recommendations. My question would be, is it just a failure, is it a reluctance, or is it even possibly a resistance to comply on the part of management?
As I look at a number of the issues here in the appendix, chapter 5, item 15.71 referring to Health Canada, telling us that this measure in terms of assessing prescription drug misuse is not feasible and couldn't be implemented, I don't know all of the nuances behind that answer, but it strikes me as a strange comment in a recommendation that was made.
In addition, on page 4, item 12.121, it states that the small amount of additional information gained from changing its systems would not be worth the investment. And you could go on down that page; there are three others identified on that page.
You indicate that special attention by management is one of the key factors in addressing these issues. My question is, how can we as a committee ensure that management continues to give the kind of sustained attention to these issues? Secondly, if you have time to answer this question, you've identified 15 shortcomings--again, in terms of identifying and addressing all 15, we may get to those--but if we had to prioritize three of them, are there three that would rise to the top? You may not be prepared to answer that today, but it would be helpful for me if, in the future, we could have those prioritized.
Thank you.
Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Thank you.
Obviously, the work of the committee really gives life to our work when committees prepare reports and table them in the House or when they ask government to respond, when they ask government for action plans and regular follow-up reports. Those are the kinds of things we're suggesting in our opening statement that you might want to consider. So if the committees help us as well to do the follow-up, I think it helps to focus attention.
On the three issues, we have identified three that we think are very important to the health and well-being of first nations people.
In terms of mould in housing, a lead department should be identified and be responsible for developing a strategy and an action plan. I could go so far as to say that it could be tabled with the committee.
On the second one, the prescription drug, perhaps Health Canada could provide you with an update of what they're doing and what sorts of actions they're taking and, again, have regular reporting.
On the food mail program, the government should actually indicate what their plans are for a program that is very important to providing fresh food, nutritious food, to people in the north, which otherwise would be exorbitantly expensive.
Those are the three that we thought were the most significant.
Conservative
Conservative
Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
It is with great pleasure that I address my comments this afternoon to Ms. Fraser, the Auditor General, as well as to the representatives of Indian and Northern Affairs Canada. I had the privilege of being a technical advisor with Indian and Northern Affairs Canada over the past few years, and I worked with Ms. Davis, particularly on the drinking water strategy. I also want to say hello to the people from Kitcisakik who are present with us here today.
I have a few questions to ask you concerning accountability. Ms. Fraser, reference was made earlier to the large number of reports provided by the communities. Do you feel that those reports allow you to ensure that taxpayers' money is well spent? On the one hand, we want to simplify administrative procedures, and on the other, we want to ensure that accountability is enhanced. What is your perspective on this? Are the reports sufficient for accountability purposes? Are there too many? If so, can we simplify the process, while ensuring that there is good accountability on the part of the communities?
Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
In 2002, we audited the number of reports which a typical first nations community had to produce in the course of one year. We noted that four departments required at least 168 reports annually, five of these being audited financial statements. The requirements appear reasonable when one looks at each program in particular, but when you add all of them up together, it no longer makes any sense.
We also examined the analysis departments did of these reports and we noted that they did not use all of the information. Often in our audits, we have criticized the government because it did not carry out adequate analysis.
We feel that the system should be simplified. There should be more coordination, and programs should be simplified. But there should at the very least be coordination. We are talking here about approximately 600 first nations. It should be relatively easy to coordinate information needs.
Moreover, you must understand that the penalties imposed on first nations who do not produce this information are very severe. If they do not produce financial statements, their funding is cut. So they produce the information. However, as most of these communities have few members, this is a heavy administrative burden.
It would be appropriate to simplify the system and see what information the government needs, but, first and foremost, what information the community needs. It could use the information for its management and this would also be useful to the government. Consequently, we think that there should be a way of simplifying the whole system.
Conservative
Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC
Very well.
I have a question to ask you about mould.
Bloc
Yvon Lévesque Bloc Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ms. Fraser, thank you for being here.
As you will have noted, there is a first nations group with us. For 25 years, these people have been trying to obtain decent services. Today, they are still grappling with unthinkable conditions.
Since I have very little time, I would like to put a certain number of questions to you consecutively about the departments involved in Indian affairs. You may answer me afterwards.
On page 178 of your report, you mention the existence of entry points for a nutritious food aid program. You indicate that “based on the results of pilot projects underway in three communities, it is exploring the merits of program amendments [...]”. However, the department only reviewed one of the program's entry points.
I arrived Friday evening from Nunavik, and I took a photograph while I was there of a turkey that weighed approximately 15 pounds. It wasn't my picture, it was a real turkey. Do you know that the price of that turkey was $81? It's hard to believe! And still today, people are asking questions about food aid and the sending of nutritious perishable food by air. Think of rotting mushrooms or rotten head lettuce that sells for $3.59. And that food isn't even edible.
Next, when I read your report, I believe I understood that you were attempting to convince the government to centralize services offered by the Canada Revenue Agency, Heritage Canada and Health Canada within a single department. In matters of revenue, we know that the Inuit are taxpayers. Each hunter is an entrepreneur who provides food to his fellow citizens. However, he cannot deduct his expenses, as opposed to ordinary entrepreneurs.
Ms. Fraser, have you noted a real will on the part of the government to broaden the Canada Post Food Mail Program, as well as the assistance to regular carriers, that is to say the boats that bring goods to the Inuit? There may be aid at the present time, but it is not sufficient. It might be good to recommend that we help them a bit more.
I'm anxious to hear your reply.
Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I'd like to clarify a point which Mr. Lévesque raised. He is under the impression that we are recommending that services be centralized; that is not the case. Each department has its mandate and its role to play. In several of our audits, we recommend better coordination. Sometimes, the programs of various departments can be better coordinated.
Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
About the food mail program, it is true that it is very expensive. In fact, Mr. Campbell is a former employee of the Hudson's Bay Company. He worked in the far north and he phoned one of his former colleagues to mention that transportation costs exceeded $5 per pound of merchandise. For a 10-pound bag of potatoes, that's quite expensive. That is why this program is very important.
We simply examined the effectiveness of the program and where the entry points were. I'll give you an example. Food is purchased in Montreal and sent to Val-d'Or by truck. A plane leaves Ottawa and stops in Val-d'Or to pick up the merchandise and bring it up north. We have to wonder whether this is the most economical way of doing things, and if the food stays fresh when it is transported by truck on the first leg of its journey.
We recommended that the department review the program and the entry points. You may wish to ask the representatives of the department what their intentions are and what action plan will be proposed, because we do not have that information.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Colin Mayes
Can we move on to the next question, or would you like to ask the department that question?
